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The press conference had lots of details. Last I checked no recording has been posted. The old plan called for replacing all of the bench walls along the lengt

The press conference had lots of details. Last I checked no recording has been posted. The old plan called for replacing all of the bench walls along the length of both tunnels. Bench walls are the short concrete casements which house the cables needed to power the train and provide communications. Replacing them was necessary because of leakage to the cables which corrodes them. It would have been a total gut removal. The new plan is to 'rack' the cables along the walls, which will improve access and be way cheaper. It's some kind of hanging cable system. Some of the bench walls are damaged, so they will be removed or patched on an as needed basis. Otherwise they are obsolete, so the important bit is that they don't fall onto the tracks. There will be sensors to monitor for problems with the remaining benchwall. These techniques have been used in new tunnel construction outside the US, but never to rehabilitate an existing tunnel. It seems like a much needed improvement over the old plan which will have less costs and inconvenience.

bilbo0s 8y ago
>It seems like a much needed improvement over the old plan which will have less costs and inconvenience... This is true. (Along with everything else you posted.) At the same time though, all of this will mean less money for contractors. I have no problem with that, just wondering how much resistance this thing will meet? Because I know a lot of entities out there were banking on making a lot of money off of MTA lines in the near future.
- bobthepanda 8y ago
  There will be plenty of money, at least for this initial contract. The full-shutdown contract was already issued, which will either lead to lots of legal wrangling as the MTA cancels the contract, the mother of all change orders that drives up the cost, or a little bit of A and a little bit of B. The better engineering is certainly a plus, but the time to have brought this up would've been two years ago when they started talking about all this in the first place. Cuomo has been the governor for a better part of a decade, this reeks of political oppurtunism.
  - skybrian 8y ago
    I agree that it would have been better to plan it right the first time, but would spin this a little differently: The governor shouldn't have had to get involved at all, but I think it's good that he did. I wonder about the planning process that made it necessary. Something was screwed up there. If this is opportunism, more of that, please, rather than letting bad plans go through.
    - ringwalt 8y ago
      You might already be aware, but the MTA was founded by NY state and much of its management is nominated directly by the governor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Transportation_Authority#Governance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Transportation_Au... It's a corporation distinct from the state government but the governor still influences major decisions, whereas the local government doesn't have any direct control.
    - gwright 8y ago
      My not so wild guess is that the politicians and government employees (and their unions) are too cozy with the construction unions. Public infrastructure projects in general seem to have above market costs and NYC is sort of notorious for problems in this area. (e.g. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiu-JH_2NLfAhXFm-AKHVMPBmoQFjAAegQICRAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2017%2F12%2F28%2Fnyregion%2Fnew-york-subway-construction-costs.html&usg=AOvVaw1mxcDYM1oQw_zhdXAqXOa- https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&c...)
    - bobthepanda 8y ago
      The subway is governed by brinksmanship, and is set up so that the governor can have as little or as much perceived influence over the subway as is convenient. The governor pushing the MTA to complete the Second Avenue Subway on time: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/13/nyregion/second-ave-subway-andrew-cuomo.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/13/nyregion/second-ave-subwa... The subway was then found not to have completed safety testing in the sake of opening "on time": https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/20/nyregion/second-avenue-subway-safety.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/20/nyregion/second-avenue-su... The governor lambasting fare hikes that are largely the result of his administration underfunding the agency, and blaming it on "waste" by his own administrators: https://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/ny-pol-cuomo-mta-fare-hikes-lehrer-20181119-story.html https://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/ny-pol-cuomo-mta-f... In fact, this most recent thing happened after he decided to interrupt subway service in this tunnel for a photo op two weeks ago, despite the fact that his agency has known about it for almost three years now. http://bedfordandbowery.com/2018/12/watch-gov-cuomo-sample-the-l-train-tunnels-toxic-cocktail/ http://bedfordandbowery.com/2018/12/watch-gov-cuomo-sample-t...
michaelt 8y ago
It's some kind of hanging cable system. Here's how cabling is done in some parts of the London Underground system: https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-cables-on-a-station-wall-on-the-london-underground-136183537.html https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-cables-on-a-station-wall-o...
- genocidicbunny 8y ago
  The Saint Petersburg metro does the same thing since they frequently deal with moist and wet conditions in the tunnels.
a-dub 8y ago
I wonder what the loss of space on one side will mean operationally. I often see people on both sides when they're doing work. Also tickled me that they're just going to leave the existing cabling in place. It's like physical tech debt. The whole thing did somewhat come across like a hacky patch though. Although I do have to wonder how feasible it would have actually been to remove all the benchwall (which is attached to the inner lining) without damaging the inner lining. That said, if the hack works long enough to keep it up until all those AmazonBux buy a new crossriver tunnel, then good on 'em!
- ergothus 8y ago
  Hacky patch through or in-place incremental refactoring? (Honest question, my knowledge of the subway in general and this plan in particular are limited to the comments here)

bilbo0s 8y ago

>It seems like a much needed improvement over the old plan which will have less costs and inconvenience... This is true. (Along with everything else you posted.) At the same time though, all of this will mean less money for contractors. I have no problem with that, just wondering how much resistance this thing will meet? Because I know a lot of entities out there were banking on making a lot of money off of MTA lines in the near future.

bobthepanda 8y ago
There will be plenty of money, at least for this initial contract. The full-shutdown contract was already issued, which will either lead to lots of legal wrangling as the MTA cancels the contract, the mother of all change orders that drives up the cost, or a little bit of A and a little bit of B. The better engineering is certainly a plus, but the time to have brought this up would've been two years ago when they started talking about all this in the first place. Cuomo has been the governor for a better part of a decade, this reeks of political oppurtunism.
- skybrian 8y ago
  I agree that it would have been better to plan it right the first time, but would spin this a little differently: The governor shouldn't have had to get involved at all, but I think it's good that he did. I wonder about the planning process that made it necessary. Something was screwed up there. If this is opportunism, more of that, please, rather than letting bad plans go through.
  - ringwalt 8y ago
    You might already be aware, but the MTA was founded by NY state and much of its management is nominated directly by the governor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Transportation_Authority#Governance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_Transportation_Au... It's a corporation distinct from the state government but the governor still influences major decisions, whereas the local government doesn't have any direct control.
  - gwright 8y ago
    My not so wild guess is that the politicians and government employees (and their unions) are too cozy with the construction unions. Public infrastructure projects in general seem to have above market costs and NYC is sort of notorious for problems in this area. (e.g. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiu-JH_2NLfAhXFm-AKHVMPBmoQFjAAegQICRAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2017%2F12%2F28%2Fnyregion%2Fnew-york-subway-construction-costs.html&usg=AOvVaw1mxcDYM1oQw_zhdXAqXOa- https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&c...)
  - bobthepanda 8y ago
    The subway is governed by brinksmanship, and is set up so that the governor can have as little or as much perceived influence over the subway as is convenient. The governor pushing the MTA to complete the Second Avenue Subway on time: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/13/nyregion/second-ave-subway-andrew-cuomo.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/13/nyregion/second-ave-subwa... The subway was then found not to have completed safety testing in the sake of opening "on time": https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/20/nyregion/second-avenue-subway-safety.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/20/nyregion/second-avenue-su... The governor lambasting fare hikes that are largely the result of his administration underfunding the agency, and blaming it on "waste" by his own administrators: https://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/ny-pol-cuomo-mta-fare-hikes-lehrer-20181119-story.html https://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/ny-pol-cuomo-mta-f... In fact, this most recent thing happened after he decided to interrupt subway service in this tunnel for a photo op two weeks ago, despite the fact that his agency has known about it for almost three years now. http://bedfordandbowery.com/2018/12/watch-gov-cuomo-sample-the-l-train-tunnels-toxic-cocktail/ http://bedfordandbowery.com/2018/12/watch-gov-cuomo-sample-t...

michaelt 8y ago

It's some kind of hanging cable system. Here's how cabling is done in some parts of the London Underground system: https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-cables-on-a-station-wall-on-the-london-underground-136183537.html https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-cables-on-a-station-wall-o...

genocidicbunny 8y ago
The Saint Petersburg metro does the same thing since they frequently deal with moist and wet conditions in the tunnels.

a-dub 8y ago

I wonder what the loss of space on one side will mean operationally. I often see people on both sides when they're doing work. Also tickled me that they're just going to leave the existing cabling in place. It's like physical tech debt. The whole thing did somewhat come across like a hacky patch though. Although I do have to wonder how feasible it would have actually been to remove all the benchwall (which is attached to the inner lining) without damaging the inner lining. That said, if the hack works long enough to keep it up until all those AmazonBux buy a new crossriver tunnel, then good on 'em!

ergothus 8y ago
Hacky patch through or in-place incremental refactoring? (Honest question, my knowledge of the subway in general and this plan in particular are limited to the comments here)