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The problem with "dog whistles" is that they can literally be seen in anything, and are a shortcut to labelling someone a racist without any proof, and therefor

by vtfv 8y ago

The problem with "dog whistles" is that they can literally be seen in anything, and are a shortcut to labelling someone a racist without any proof, and therefore not engaging with their actual arguments. It's particularly interesting in this case because the youtube link is Thomas Sowell speaking about the negative effects of Affirmative Action and he is a black American, would you say that he is dog whistling for racists? Now onto the law itself, Affirmative Action is a racist policy as it advantages certain races over others, full stop. Recently asian students have brought a suit against Harvard (https://www.npr.org/2018/11/02/660734399/harvard-discrimination-trial-is-ending-but-lawsuit-is-far-from-over https://www.npr.org/2018/11/02/660734399/harvard-discriminat...), for their policies negatively effecting asian Americans. As a society we need to decide if we want to advantage some races over others. In my opinion it makes more sense to advantage people from poor backgrounds then it does based on race, as the black son or daughter of rich parents will have had more opportunities than the poor asian American. If you disagree with that I would love to understand why. In addition, I fully agree that legacy admissions should be removed.

LordDragonfang 8y ago
My main issue is that I was accused of "bringing race into the discussion", when it was already very much a part of the topic of the discussion (which you seem to agree). My points and explanation of dog whistles were aimed at that. I want to be clear that I never accused the parent of being racist (and I don't have reason to believe he was being so). I just expressed that the specific choice of argument felt similar to rhetoric that racists do use, and that supporting it with non-racial evidence instead might better serve the argument. (I admit to also wanting to encourage readers to think critically about a topic so rife with racial tension on both sides) >As a society we need to decide if we want to advantage some races over others. In my opinion it makes more sense to advantage people from poor backgrounds then it does based on race... The justification for making it based on race is that it is a form of reparation to the collective racial communities, especially the black community, that have been negatively impacted by a deliberate effort by the government to keep them in a cycle of poverty (black codes, redlining, etc). The other goal is to have a broader ethnic representation in careers requiring a college-education, which is required to effectively remove the inherent internal prejudices in those circles (see also the push for getting women into STEM, and the backlash that they face upon entering due to the lack of women already there to set in-cultural norms). An unfortunate side effects is that, taking only AA and diversity initiatives into account, a rich black person will have fewer opportunities than a poor Asian American, due to the already high proportion of East Asians in the relevant areas. That's more an issue of the extremely strong disparity of wealth and power in this country than an actual criticism of AA, however. Controlling for wealth, non-Asian POC will still often have fewer opportunities due the the strong influence of networking and in-group prejudice/bias on your career opportunities (which is one of the reasons that AA and diversity initiatives are required) That being said, I don't know enough about the actual effects of said policies to judge their effectiveness, since I'm not a sociologist and assessing the real results of a policy with such complicated interactions is difficult. I can only speak confidently to the a priori justifications.
- asabjorn 8y ago
  Read: I am not saying you are a racist, you just sound like one. How is that not just a rhetorical trick for calling someone a racist without having to own up to it? And your point about opportunity is demonstrably false; groups such as Nigerians do better than even Asians in educational and work achievement. There is also a historical african american upper class that consistently achieve in a similar manner across generations [2]. That should be celebrated, not ignored. Statistically the african american family has fallen apart since the 60s, with 72% of kids growing up without a father up from 16%. The adverse outcomes of fatherless homes on kids is well known [1], and we should ask ourselves why this has become the normal case if we want the outcome of these groups to improve. [1] https://www.rallypoint.com/shared-links/larry-elder-social-consequences-of-fatherlessness-and-its-solution https://www.rallypoint.com/shared-links/larry-elder-social-c... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_upper_class https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_upper_class

by vtfv 8y ago

LordDragonfang 8y ago

My main issue is that I was accused of "bringing race into the discussion", when it was already very much a part of the topic of the discussion (which you seem to agree). My points and explanation of dog whistles were aimed at that. I want to be clear that I never accused the parent of being racist (and I don't have reason to believe he was being so). I just expressed that the specific choice of argument felt similar to rhetoric that racists do use, and that supporting it with non-racial evidence instead might better serve the argument. (I admit to also wanting to encourage readers to think critically about a topic so rife with racial tension on both sides) >As a society we need to decide if we want to advantage some races over others. In my opinion it makes more sense to advantage people from poor backgrounds then it does based on race... The justification for making it based on race is that it is a form of reparation to the collective racial communities, especially the black community, that have been negatively impacted by a deliberate effort by the government to keep them in a cycle of poverty (black codes, redlining, etc). The other goal is to have a broader ethnic representation in careers requiring a college-education, which is required to effectively remove the inherent internal prejudices in those circles (see also the push for getting women into STEM, and the backlash that they face upon entering due to the lack of women already there to set in-cultural norms). An unfortunate side effects is that, taking only AA and diversity initiatives into account, a rich black person will have fewer opportunities than a poor Asian American, due to the already high proportion of East Asians in the relevant areas. That's more an issue of the extremely strong disparity of wealth and power in this country than an actual criticism of AA, however. Controlling for wealth, non-Asian POC will still often have fewer opportunities due the the strong influence of networking and in-group prejudice/bias on your career opportunities (which is one of the reasons that AA and diversity initiatives are required) That being said, I don't know enough about the actual effects of said policies to judge their effectiveness, since I'm not a sociologist and assessing the real results of a policy with such complicated interactions is difficult. I can only speak confidently to the a priori justifications.

asabjorn 8y ago
Read: I am not saying you are a racist, you just sound like one. How is that not just a rhetorical trick for calling someone a racist without having to own up to it? And your point about opportunity is demonstrably false; groups such as Nigerians do better than even Asians in educational and work achievement. There is also a historical african american upper class that consistently achieve in a similar manner across generations [2]. That should be celebrated, not ignored. Statistically the african american family has fallen apart since the 60s, with 72% of kids growing up without a father up from 16%. The adverse outcomes of fatherless homes on kids is well known [1], and we should ask ourselves why this has become the normal case if we want the outcome of these groups to improve. [1] https://www.rallypoint.com/shared-links/larry-elder-social-consequences-of-fatherlessness-and-its-solution https://www.rallypoint.com/shared-links/larry-elder-social-c... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_upper_class https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_upper_class