2 ms·

No one in my social circle is pro-Brexit. The closest I get to pro-Brexit people are the people on a motorcycle forum I frequent. I have interacted with people

No one in my social circle is pro-Brexit. The closest I get to pro-Brexit people are the people on a motorcycle forum I frequent. I have interacted with people there, and our positions are in fact quite opposed on the topics you mention. On our values: - London: I love London, whereas the pro-Brexiters generally see London as a filth-infested pit of crime, stabbings, Islamic terrorism, a failed experiment of multi-culturalism, and a grand distraction that occupies far too much public attention. - Immigration: I distinguish between EU free movement and immigration, they do not. They do not value the right to settle anywhere you like in the EU in the same way I do. They see a feeling of European identity above national identity as stark raving bonkers, loony bin stuff. - Nationalism: I've seen the poison of nationalism in Ireland and how it leads to conflict and violence; they seem to see little difference between nationalism and patriotism or supporting a football team. They don't understand the danger. - Regulation: I am strongly in favour of central regulation for everything that affects inter-state commerce because the alternative is a race to the bottom with short-sighted politicians pursuing beggar-thy-neighbour policies. Whereas Brexiteers dislike regulations coming from Brussels, seeing it as an imposition with not enough democratic checks and balances. I'm sympathetic to the criticism of lack of democratic checks, but I think the answer is EU reform, not leaving the EU. Other, more left-leaning people might resent EU restrictions on state aid, I'm not in favour of state aid either - you see how US states competed with one another with tax breaks for Amazon, it's far better to have central restrictions on this nonsense to cut it out. So on the topics you list, my position and pro-Brexit positions are opposed.

petre 8y ago
> I think the answer is EU reform That's probably what the Cameron administration tried to do and failed. After he promused to hild the referendum and won tge majoriry, he probably hoped the outcome would be something like 48% leave and use that as a bargaining coin to negotiate with the EU. It didn't work because the Brtis voted to leave instead.
- barrkel 8y ago
  Cameron wanted an emergency brake on immigration; he got an emergency brake on benefits. I don't think he tried to make the commission more democratic, or enable EU parliament to propose legislation, and I'm pretty sure he didn't try to create any unifying executive head elected from across the whole population. National governments are jealous of their powers, and fearful that the lightweight EU parliament would just be a tool of lobbyists rather than responsive to citizens, that citizens wouldn't be engaged with their representatives. And in many ways they're right. But it's a Catch-22: the EU parliament will remain a bunch of lightweights for as long as it has little power. The EU definitely has a bunch of problems. Top of the list is democratic back-sliding in Hungary, Poland, Romania. And Euro area fiscal union or some other mechanism of fixing economic imbalances under monetary union without needing pro-cyclical austerity and depreciation. And migration from Middle East and Africa. And USA's pivot towards unenlightened self-interest and Russia's reawakened regional power-plays. Brexit is a fair ways down the list at this point for the rest of the EU, much less democratic reform, alas.
  - petre 8y ago
    The EP and EC are by no means lightweights as long as any act voted or adopted by them becomes law, with the obligation of nation states to ratify it and transpose into national laws and regulations. The fiscal union was flawed from the onset, which is why Margaret Tatcher opposed the UK joining the Eurozone. And she was right to do so. https://youtu.be/5TPpuIslzG4 https://youtu.be/5TPpuIslzG4 People in Poland, Hungary and Romania should fight for democracy, as opposed to waiting for the EU to fix their problems. Democracy is won in the street, it isn't granted by decree.
    - barrkel 8y ago
      I think the monetary union is a step in faith. Flawed, yes, because it's not enough, not because it shouldn't be done. EU is built out of crises etc.
    - saati 8y ago
      How is Hungary not democratic? Fidesz won 3 times in a row, and the election system is more fair than FPTP, they aren't banning or killing the opposition. While I don't like their policies, this is what the people want and this is what democracy in eastern europe looks like.

petre 8y ago

> I think the answer is EU reform That's probably what the Cameron administration tried to do and failed. After he promused to hild the referendum and won tge majoriry, he probably hoped the outcome would be something like 48% leave and use that as a bargaining coin to negotiate with the EU. It didn't work because the Brtis voted to leave instead.

barrkel 8y ago
Cameron wanted an emergency brake on immigration; he got an emergency brake on benefits. I don't think he tried to make the commission more democratic, or enable EU parliament to propose legislation, and I'm pretty sure he didn't try to create any unifying executive head elected from across the whole population. National governments are jealous of their powers, and fearful that the lightweight EU parliament would just be a tool of lobbyists rather than responsive to citizens, that citizens wouldn't be engaged with their representatives. And in many ways they're right. But it's a Catch-22: the EU parliament will remain a bunch of lightweights for as long as it has little power. The EU definitely has a bunch of problems. Top of the list is democratic back-sliding in Hungary, Poland, Romania. And Euro area fiscal union or some other mechanism of fixing economic imbalances under monetary union without needing pro-cyclical austerity and depreciation. And migration from Middle East and Africa. And USA's pivot towards unenlightened self-interest and Russia's reawakened regional power-plays. Brexit is a fair ways down the list at this point for the rest of the EU, much less democratic reform, alas.
- petre 8y ago
  The EP and EC are by no means lightweights as long as any act voted or adopted by them becomes law, with the obligation of nation states to ratify it and transpose into national laws and regulations. The fiscal union was flawed from the onset, which is why Margaret Tatcher opposed the UK joining the Eurozone. And she was right to do so. https://youtu.be/5TPpuIslzG4 https://youtu.be/5TPpuIslzG4 People in Poland, Hungary and Romania should fight for democracy, as opposed to waiting for the EU to fix their problems. Democracy is won in the street, it isn't granted by decree.
  - barrkel 8y ago
    I think the monetary union is a step in faith. Flawed, yes, because it's not enough, not because it shouldn't be done. EU is built out of crises etc.
  - saati 8y ago
    How is Hungary not democratic? Fidesz won 3 times in a row, and the election system is more fair than FPTP, they aren't banning or killing the opposition. While I don't like their policies, this is what the people want and this is what democracy in eastern europe looks like.