4 ms·

I'm a Remainer. I'm Irish - Ireland is one of the most pro-EU nations - and I live and own a house in London. I think, despite my own interests, that the UK pro

I'm a Remainer. I'm Irish - Ireland is one of the most pro-EU nations - and I live and own a house in London. I think, despite my own interests, that the UK probably needs to leave the EU in order to resolve the splits in society and for the UK to figure out its place in the world. The fact is that Brexit divisions have settled in in the country, becoming more part of people's political identity than political party. There's a complete lack of political leadership, with May saying what she thinks majority Tory supports want to hear, and Corbyn saying as little as possible to try and avoid making any decisions on Brexit, hoping May pushes Brexit through so that Tories can be blamed for any downside. Functionally, that means the two main parties are pro-Brexit, Tories vocally, Labour passively. With FPTP voting, there can only be two parties without vote splitting, so there's no functional political opposition to Brexit. If Brexit does happen, well, Brexit won't be over; it's going to grind on for decades of negotiations trying to replace and replicate what the EU already did. Hopefully, that ultimately means coming back to the EU. Why do I think Brexit probably needs to happen, though, even though I don't want it and it's not in my interest? Leavers won't understand the folly of Brexit until after it has happened. If it doesn't happen, it will poison politics for decades, and the UK would be even more obstructionist than it's been to date. There hasn't been a positive identity-based case made for Remain. Everything has been framed as economic arguments, and in particular economic harm from leaving. Free movement - a reciprocal right of EU citizens - has been misleadingly framed as immigration. The history of UK joining the EEC has been rewritten and misremembered as joining a simple trade area that got out of hand. It's too late to turn these sentiments around, and there's no leadership trying to do it. In fact quite the opposite: because Tory membership is so pro-leave, Tory leadership contenders are all out-doing one another in EU-bashing. None of the political leadership is thinking of the good of the country, everything is on the basis of party politics. It's the kind of thing that helps you understand why world wars get started.

spuz 8y ago
> The fact is that Brexit divisions have settled in in the country, becoming more part of people's political identity than political party. I wish people wouldn't see Brexit as the ultimate test of British values. It's just a thing that roughly 50% of the country are on different sides of - like milk in tea or marmite on toast. That doesn't mean they fundamentally disagree on every other political issue. Even if as you suggest we go ahead with Brexit and somehow come out better off, do you think we won't find something else to divide us again? Whether you support Brexit or not says nothing about whether you support immigration rights, free trade and regulation and those political issues say nothing about what your values are as a person. If this makes little sense to you then try this experiment, find a friend who is opposed to your view on Brexit and then try to find out whether or not they actually share the same fundamental values as you. I'm willing to bet that you have a lot more in common than you think.
- barrkel 8y ago
  No one in my social circle is pro-Brexit. The closest I get to pro-Brexit people are the people on a motorcycle forum I frequent. I have interacted with people there, and our positions are in fact quite opposed on the topics you mention. On our values: - London: I love London, whereas the pro-Brexiters generally see London as a filth-infested pit of crime, stabbings, Islamic terrorism, a failed experiment of multi-culturalism, and a grand distraction that occupies far too much public attention. - Immigration: I distinguish between EU free movement and immigration, they do not. They do not value the right to settle anywhere you like in the EU in the same way I do. They see a feeling of European identity above national identity as stark raving bonkers, loony bin stuff. - Nationalism: I've seen the poison of nationalism in Ireland and how it leads to conflict and violence; they seem to see little difference between nationalism and patriotism or supporting a football team. They don't understand the danger. - Regulation: I am strongly in favour of central regulation for everything that affects inter-state commerce because the alternative is a race to the bottom with short-sighted politicians pursuing beggar-thy-neighbour policies. Whereas Brexiteers dislike regulations coming from Brussels, seeing it as an imposition with not enough democratic checks and balances. I'm sympathetic to the criticism of lack of democratic checks, but I think the answer is EU reform, not leaving the EU. Other, more left-leaning people might resent EU restrictions on state aid, I'm not in favour of state aid either - you see how US states competed with one another with tax breaks for Amazon, it's far better to have central restrictions on this nonsense to cut it out. So on the topics you list, my position and pro-Brexit positions are opposed.
  - petre 8y ago
    > I think the answer is EU reform That's probably what the Cameron administration tried to do and failed. After he promused to hild the referendum and won tge majoriry, he probably hoped the outcome would be something like 48% leave and use that as a bargaining coin to negotiate with the EU. It didn't work because the Brtis voted to leave instead.
    - barrkel 8y ago
      Cameron wanted an emergency brake on immigration; he got an emergency brake on benefits. I don't think he tried to make the commission more democratic, or enable EU parliament to propose legislation, and I'm pretty sure he didn't try to create any unifying executive head elected from across the whole population. National governments are jealous of their powers, and fearful that the lightweight EU parliament would just be a tool of lobbyists rather than responsive to citizens, that citizens wouldn't be engaged with their representatives. And in many ways they're right. But it's a Catch-22: the EU parliament will remain a bunch of lightweights for as long as it has little power. The EU definitely has a bunch of problems. Top of the list is democratic back-sliding in Hungary, Poland, Romania. And Euro area fiscal union or some other mechanism of fixing economic imbalances under monetary union without needing pro-cyclical austerity and depreciation. And migration from Middle East and Africa. And USA's pivot towards unenlightened self-interest and Russia's reawakened regional power-plays. Brexit is a fair ways down the list at this point for the rest of the EU, much less democratic reform, alas.
keithpeter 8y ago
"I'm a Remainer. I'm Irish - Ireland is one of the most pro-EU nations - and I live and own a house in London. I think, despite my own interests, that the UK probably needs to leave the EU in order to resolve the splits in society and for the UK to figure out its place in the world." I'm a UK citizen and I would really rather not have my economic future such as it is (I do not own a house in London, and would probably have difficulty raising a mortgage on a parking space there) flushed down the toilet for some mythical concept of 'control'. Economics is really important as some of my pro-Brexit neighbours are beginning to realise.
- barrkel 8y ago
  I think identity trumps economics. People are willing to die for their identity, whereas it's harder to get people to die for some money when it's not a matter of survival. People would rather be proud and poor than getting by under what they've mentally envisioned as a yoke, instead of owning it. Sure, economics is important. In global currency terms, the value of my home has declined substantially, I've lost a notional mid-5-figure amount expressed in EUR or USD terms. But if you're not internationally minded, if you don't visualize the possibility of yourself living outside of the UK, you're unlikely to consider it a real loss. It's a lot like how poor people can be self-limited by their self-conception, something you might have seen in teaching. (I grew up poor myself, it took some time to expand my horizons, and the process still isn't complete.) If you live your life locally, why would you care if French cheese and Spanish ham gets more expensive? You probably think it'll be better for British producers. In fact you'd probably consider it just fine if the soft southerners have to pay more for their wine. The big irony is that pro-Brexit regions have economies that are more dependent on the single market than pro-Remain London. Proving that's the case before Brexit, however, is hard - and if May's deal goes through, it'll go some way to softening the blow. So the decline will be even more imperceptible, until 20 years later, and finally you notice how shabby everything back home is when you come back from your Continental holiday.
  - keithpeter 8y ago
    Some people. Remember that the demographic changes by about 750k each year (grim reaper and new cohort entering electorate). Remember also that the majority of degree educated people under 50 voted against this. I'm not seeing any decrease in polarisation whichever way it goes. Where I live, many people depend on the automotive supply chain. This is not a case of boutique cheese for us, it is a case of mass unemployment. I've lived through one of those episodes.
petre 8y ago
The UK could join the EEA or the EFTA along with Iceland, Norway and Lichtenstein. Switzerland would also get to have more negotiatiating power with the UK in the EFTA.
- icebraining 8y ago
  You write as if that was just a matter of filling out a form. The UK could join if the existing members - and that includes the EU member states - allow them to do so. And why would they?
  - petre 8y ago
    Because it would benefit everyone. The UK was an EFTA founding state and a former member between 1960 and 1973, before they joined the EU. The EFTA does not include the EU member states. The EEA includes both the EU member states and the EFTA states with the exception of Switzerland. http://www.efta.int/About-EFTA/Frequently-asked-questions-EFTA-EEA-EFTA-membership-and-Brexit-328676 http://www.efta.int/About-EFTA/Frequently-asked-questions-EF...

spuz 8y ago

> The fact is that Brexit divisions have settled in in the country, becoming more part of people's political identity than political party. I wish people wouldn't see Brexit as the ultimate test of British values. It's just a thing that roughly 50% of the country are on different sides of - like milk in tea or marmite on toast. That doesn't mean they fundamentally disagree on every other political issue. Even if as you suggest we go ahead with Brexit and somehow come out better off, do you think we won't find something else to divide us again? Whether you support Brexit or not says nothing about whether you support immigration rights, free trade and regulation and those political issues say nothing about what your values are as a person. If this makes little sense to you then try this experiment, find a friend who is opposed to your view on Brexit and then try to find out whether or not they actually share the same fundamental values as you. I'm willing to bet that you have a lot more in common than you think.

barrkel 8y ago
No one in my social circle is pro-Brexit. The closest I get to pro-Brexit people are the people on a motorcycle forum I frequent. I have interacted with people there, and our positions are in fact quite opposed on the topics you mention. On our values: - London: I love London, whereas the pro-Brexiters generally see London as a filth-infested pit of crime, stabbings, Islamic terrorism, a failed experiment of multi-culturalism, and a grand distraction that occupies far too much public attention. - Immigration: I distinguish between EU free movement and immigration, they do not. They do not value the right to settle anywhere you like in the EU in the same way I do. They see a feeling of European identity above national identity as stark raving bonkers, loony bin stuff. - Nationalism: I've seen the poison of nationalism in Ireland and how it leads to conflict and violence; they seem to see little difference between nationalism and patriotism or supporting a football team. They don't understand the danger. - Regulation: I am strongly in favour of central regulation for everything that affects inter-state commerce because the alternative is a race to the bottom with short-sighted politicians pursuing beggar-thy-neighbour policies. Whereas Brexiteers dislike regulations coming from Brussels, seeing it as an imposition with not enough democratic checks and balances. I'm sympathetic to the criticism of lack of democratic checks, but I think the answer is EU reform, not leaving the EU. Other, more left-leaning people might resent EU restrictions on state aid, I'm not in favour of state aid either - you see how US states competed with one another with tax breaks for Amazon, it's far better to have central restrictions on this nonsense to cut it out. So on the topics you list, my position and pro-Brexit positions are opposed.
- petre 8y ago
  > I think the answer is EU reform That's probably what the Cameron administration tried to do and failed. After he promused to hild the referendum and won tge majoriry, he probably hoped the outcome would be something like 48% leave and use that as a bargaining coin to negotiate with the EU. It didn't work because the Brtis voted to leave instead.
  - barrkel 8y ago
    Cameron wanted an emergency brake on immigration; he got an emergency brake on benefits. I don't think he tried to make the commission more democratic, or enable EU parliament to propose legislation, and I'm pretty sure he didn't try to create any unifying executive head elected from across the whole population. National governments are jealous of their powers, and fearful that the lightweight EU parliament would just be a tool of lobbyists rather than responsive to citizens, that citizens wouldn't be engaged with their representatives. And in many ways they're right. But it's a Catch-22: the EU parliament will remain a bunch of lightweights for as long as it has little power. The EU definitely has a bunch of problems. Top of the list is democratic back-sliding in Hungary, Poland, Romania. And Euro area fiscal union or some other mechanism of fixing economic imbalances under monetary union without needing pro-cyclical austerity and depreciation. And migration from Middle East and Africa. And USA's pivot towards unenlightened self-interest and Russia's reawakened regional power-plays. Brexit is a fair ways down the list at this point for the rest of the EU, much less democratic reform, alas.

keithpeter 8y ago

"I'm a Remainer. I'm Irish - Ireland is one of the most pro-EU nations - and I live and own a house in London. I think, despite my own interests, that the UK probably needs to leave the EU in order to resolve the splits in society and for the UK to figure out its place in the world." I'm a UK citizen and I would really rather not have my economic future such as it is (I do not own a house in London, and would probably have difficulty raising a mortgage on a parking space there) flushed down the toilet for some mythical concept of 'control'. Economics is really important as some of my pro-Brexit neighbours are beginning to realise.

barrkel 8y ago
I think identity trumps economics. People are willing to die for their identity, whereas it's harder to get people to die for some money when it's not a matter of survival. People would rather be proud and poor than getting by under what they've mentally envisioned as a yoke, instead of owning it. Sure, economics is important. In global currency terms, the value of my home has declined substantially, I've lost a notional mid-5-figure amount expressed in EUR or USD terms. But if you're not internationally minded, if you don't visualize the possibility of yourself living outside of the UK, you're unlikely to consider it a real loss. It's a lot like how poor people can be self-limited by their self-conception, something you might have seen in teaching. (I grew up poor myself, it took some time to expand my horizons, and the process still isn't complete.) If you live your life locally, why would you care if French cheese and Spanish ham gets more expensive? You probably think it'll be better for British producers. In fact you'd probably consider it just fine if the soft southerners have to pay more for their wine. The big irony is that pro-Brexit regions have economies that are more dependent on the single market than pro-Remain London. Proving that's the case before Brexit, however, is hard - and if May's deal goes through, it'll go some way to softening the blow. So the decline will be even more imperceptible, until 20 years later, and finally you notice how shabby everything back home is when you come back from your Continental holiday.
- keithpeter 8y ago
  Some people. Remember that the demographic changes by about 750k each year (grim reaper and new cohort entering electorate). Remember also that the majority of degree educated people under 50 voted against this. I'm not seeing any decrease in polarisation whichever way it goes. Where I live, many people depend on the automotive supply chain. This is not a case of boutique cheese for us, it is a case of mass unemployment. I've lived through one of those episodes.

petre 8y ago

The UK could join the EEA or the EFTA along with Iceland, Norway and Lichtenstein. Switzerland would also get to have more negotiatiating power with the UK in the EFTA.

icebraining 8y ago
You write as if that was just a matter of filling out a form. The UK could join if the existing members - and that includes the EU member states - allow them to do so. And why would they?
- petre 8y ago
  Because it would benefit everyone. The UK was an EFTA founding state and a former member between 1960 and 1973, before they joined the EU. The EFTA does not include the EU member states. The EEA includes both the EU member states and the EFTA states with the exception of Switzerland. http://www.efta.int/About-EFTA/Frequently-asked-questions-EFTA-EEA-EFTA-membership-and-Brexit-328676 http://www.efta.int/About-EFTA/Frequently-asked-questions-EF...