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Is there any indication on how important/significant Dart will be to Fuchsia? I really like Dart, I think it's a fantastic interpreted language, but it has very

Is there any indication on how important/significant Dart will be to Fuchsia? I really like Dart, I think it's a fantastic interpreted language, but it has very little momentum because javascript es6 is good enough. If Fuchsia makes Dart its darling (with flutter?) perhaps the tides can turn?

levosmetalo 8y ago
I guess if Google want Fuchsia / Flutter to really take off, they will have to port Flutter to Javascript. One may or may not like Dart as a language, but if it didn't get any ground in some many years since it exists, why would it all of a sudden.
- allenbrunson 8y ago
  > I guess if Google want Fuchsia / Flutter to really take off, they will have to port Flutter to Javascript. just like that time when iOS was suddenly hot, but there were no apps for it, because programmers hated Objective-C and weren't willing to learn it. So Apple released a new SDK and toolchain that allowed them to write apps in C++ instead. oh wait. Okay, all snark aside. Come on, guys. Isn't the fact that high tech is always new and innovative considered to be a good thing? So why is there always so much pressure to insist that every new thing has to be exactly like all the old things? Learning Dart is not difficult. I did it myself, without even trying. I just pretended I already knew it, by following examples I found online. After a couple of weeks, my pretend-knowing turned into real-knowing.
  - pjmlp 8y ago
    Thing is, Objective-C was the official language on iOS, and yes they did release C++ support, it is called Objective-C++ and exists since NeXTSTEP days. Dart is just a programming language trying to get its killer app, which was dropped by Chrome team and gets political answers from Android team.
    - allenbrunson 8y ago
      > Thing is, Objective-C was the official language on iOS, and yes they did release C++ support, it is called Objective-C++ and exists since NeXTSTEP days. I am well aware, I have used Objective-C++ myself, but it's irrelevant. No, you cannot write iOS apps completely in C++. you still have to use Objective-C or Swift when dealing with UI components. Further, Objective-C is not "just" a programming language, in this case. All of Apple's native frameworks are very strongly influenced by it. They allow you to do things that wouldn't be possible in other languages. Obviously, it's possible to translate that experience to something else (see Swift), but it's an entirely different experience. Worse, in my opinion. The same is true of Flutter and Dart. A lot of Flutter's architectural decisions are tied closely to the strengths (and weaknesses) of Dart. It would not make sense to switch to a different implementation language at this point.
      - pjmlp 8y ago
        Which is why Fuchsia is getting an UI agnostic composition engine, where Flutter is just another possibility. While there are experiments in a Rust based UI and now Android. I bet just like Brillo original plans, Flutter is on its way out.
        hawski 8y ago
        By UI agnostic composition engine do you mean like Wayland? So every app is supposed to paint itself?
        pjmlp 8y ago
        Every app is supposed to paint itself on any UI toolkit.
        hawski 8y ago
        So what makes UI agnostic composition engine different from other composition engines? Your answer means just a yes or "your question is irrelevant"? If the latter what I meant is a difference between Wayland and X. Wayland is a dumb pipe. X is mostly used as a dumb pipe, but it offers primitives to do the painting on the server side. Linux or Wayland does not have UI toolkit, but i.e. GNOME has.
- distances 8y ago
  I would rather think some of Flutter's current rise in popularity is because it's not JavaScript.
dman 8y ago
Dart can be compiled ahead of time.
- jbob2000 8y ago
  Most apps/websites show some text and a few pictures, why is this a benefit?
  - allenbrunson 8y ago
    Because Dart is also used for compiled Flutter apps, which are meant to compete with native apps written in Java, Kotlin, Objective-C, and Swift. This gives us the obvious advantage of not turning people's phones into space heaters, which would be the case if Flutter apps used an interpreted language.
    - jbob2000 8y ago
      And there is no such thing as a slow Java app? Or a slow Objective-C app? Just because it's compiled, doesn't mean it's better. Some websites turn your phone into a space heater because the developer is shit, not because the tech is bad (HN doesn't make my phone blow up...). Dart will suffer the same problem - shit developers - so developing all this tech mumbo-jumbo is pointless. AMP, in my opinion, was a step in the right direction. AMP is google's way of saying "you're all shit at developing on the web, use this very restricted way of developing a website and watch how fast it will go". That's what we need. Don't put developers closer to the computer by giving them compiled languages. Move them as far away from the computer as you can. Languages should be moving in the direction of requiring the developer to do as little as possible. I need to import a package to make HTTP requests in Dart; every fucking app makes HTTP calls these days, how outdated is that? HTTP requests are baked in to javascript, I don't even need to think about what I need to import, I can spend mental cycles on real shit.
      - kitsunesoba 8y ago
        Generally speaking in the context of normal, non-game apps I’ve found it rather difficult to write Swift or Objective-C in such an inefficient manner that it keeps the CPU spinning and heats up your device. It’s possible for sure but also requires crazy levels of laziness, incompetence, lack of understanding, or some combination thereof.

levosmetalo 8y ago

I guess if Google want Fuchsia / Flutter to really take off, they will have to port Flutter to Javascript. One may or may not like Dart as a language, but if it didn't get any ground in some many years since it exists, why would it all of a sudden.

allenbrunson 8y ago
> I guess if Google want Fuchsia / Flutter to really take off, they will have to port Flutter to Javascript. just like that time when iOS was suddenly hot, but there were no apps for it, because programmers hated Objective-C and weren't willing to learn it. So Apple released a new SDK and toolchain that allowed them to write apps in C++ instead. oh wait. Okay, all snark aside. Come on, guys. Isn't the fact that high tech is always new and innovative considered to be a good thing? So why is there always so much pressure to insist that every new thing has to be exactly like all the old things? Learning Dart is not difficult. I did it myself, without even trying. I just pretended I already knew it, by following examples I found online. After a couple of weeks, my pretend-knowing turned into real-knowing.
- pjmlp 8y ago
  Thing is, Objective-C was the official language on iOS, and yes they did release C++ support, it is called Objective-C++ and exists since NeXTSTEP days. Dart is just a programming language trying to get its killer app, which was dropped by Chrome team and gets political answers from Android team.
  - allenbrunson 8y ago
    > Thing is, Objective-C was the official language on iOS, and yes they did release C++ support, it is called Objective-C++ and exists since NeXTSTEP days. I am well aware, I have used Objective-C++ myself, but it's irrelevant. No, you cannot write iOS apps completely in C++. you still have to use Objective-C or Swift when dealing with UI components. Further, Objective-C is not "just" a programming language, in this case. All of Apple's native frameworks are very strongly influenced by it. They allow you to do things that wouldn't be possible in other languages. Obviously, it's possible to translate that experience to something else (see Swift), but it's an entirely different experience. Worse, in my opinion. The same is true of Flutter and Dart. A lot of Flutter's architectural decisions are tied closely to the strengths (and weaknesses) of Dart. It would not make sense to switch to a different implementation language at this point.
    - pjmlp 8y ago
      Which is why Fuchsia is getting an UI agnostic composition engine, where Flutter is just another possibility. While there are experiments in a Rust based UI and now Android. I bet just like Brillo original plans, Flutter is on its way out.
      - hawski 8y ago
        By UI agnostic composition engine do you mean like Wayland? So every app is supposed to paint itself?
        pjmlp 8y ago
        Every app is supposed to paint itself on any UI toolkit.
        hawski 8y ago
        So what makes UI agnostic composition engine different from other composition engines? Your answer means just a yes or "your question is irrelevant"? If the latter what I meant is a difference between Wayland and X. Wayland is a dumb pipe. X is mostly used as a dumb pipe, but it offers primitives to do the painting on the server side. Linux or Wayland does not have UI toolkit, but i.e. GNOME has.
distances 8y ago
I would rather think some of Flutter's current rise in popularity is because it's not JavaScript.

dman 8y ago

Dart can be compiled ahead of time.

jbob2000 8y ago
Most apps/websites show some text and a few pictures, why is this a benefit?
- allenbrunson 8y ago
  Because Dart is also used for compiled Flutter apps, which are meant to compete with native apps written in Java, Kotlin, Objective-C, and Swift. This gives us the obvious advantage of not turning people's phones into space heaters, which would be the case if Flutter apps used an interpreted language.
  - jbob2000 8y ago
    And there is no such thing as a slow Java app? Or a slow Objective-C app? Just because it's compiled, doesn't mean it's better. Some websites turn your phone into a space heater because the developer is shit, not because the tech is bad (HN doesn't make my phone blow up...). Dart will suffer the same problem - shit developers - so developing all this tech mumbo-jumbo is pointless. AMP, in my opinion, was a step in the right direction. AMP is google's way of saying "you're all shit at developing on the web, use this very restricted way of developing a website and watch how fast it will go". That's what we need. Don't put developers closer to the computer by giving them compiled languages. Move them as far away from the computer as you can. Languages should be moving in the direction of requiring the developer to do as little as possible. I need to import a package to make HTTP requests in Dart; every fucking app makes HTTP calls these days, how outdated is that? HTTP requests are baked in to javascript, I don't even need to think about what I need to import, I can spend mental cycles on real shit.
    - kitsunesoba 8y ago
      Generally speaking in the context of normal, non-game apps I’ve found it rather difficult to write Swift or Objective-C in such an inefficient manner that it keeps the CPU spinning and heats up your device. It’s possible for sure but also requires crazy levels of laziness, incompetence, lack of understanding, or some combination thereof.