8 ms·

> Why don't they force the breeders to have better conditions for the animals, and include livestock and lab animals along with it? Breeding dogs isn't hard /

> Why don't they force the breeders to have better conditions for the animals, and include livestock and lab animals along with it? Breeding dogs isn't hard / has a low barrier to entry. You need a male and a female and a place to house the puppies. Conditions could be generally terrible. Enforcing licensing is unrealistic - who's going to do the inspections? Who's going to pay the inspectors? Further, there are too many dogs and cats, period. Disincentivizing commercial breeding (making it harder to sell) is a _good_ thing, and rerouting some of the animals who would be killed by shelters who can no longer accomodate them is also a good thing.

ethbro 8y ago
The point about inspection overhead / regulatory capture is a good one. Regulation is difficult because of unintended consequences. So given a choice between "ban pet stores from selling bred animals" and "create a new bureaucracy to oversee animal conditions" (then pairing it with something like a transfer tax), the former is a lighter market touch. And if we want to get realpolitik, mongrels tend to have stronger genetics than pure-breds ("Life finds a way"), so this is probably long-term good for pets in general.
- firethief 8y ago
  But you need purebreds to get mongrels, otherwise you eventually wind up with mutts (which are healthier than purebreds but not as good as mongrels).
  - johnkpaul 8y ago
    I thought that mutt and mongrel were synonyms. Is there some formal distinction?
    - ethbro 8y ago
      I meant it as a synonym, debated on which to use, and decided mongrel carried fewer pejorative connotations. 'Cross-breed' is term I've heard involving pure-bred ancestors. E.g. this adorable Bassador on Wikipedia: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_crossbreed#/media/File%3AFred_the_Bassador.jpg https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_crossbreed#/media/File%3...
meesles 8y ago
I find the overpopulation argument really interesting in how it compares to similar issues: 1. There's too many humans, killing humans to reduce the population isn't really a palatable solution to anyone. 2. There's too many cats/dogs, killing them seems much more reasonable to some, and awful to others. They're in the sweet spot between family and wildlife. 3. Pests (deer, rabbits, etc) are over-populating, killing them is pretty much A-OK. Personally I see a cultural issue akin to wastage. Especially in the US, we love to buy and throw stuff out all the time. I would hypothesize that people who buy/rescue mutts and less desirable breeds are more likely to abandon them after some time. Others who spend thousands of dollars on a specific breed they like will be more likely to keep it the duration of its life. I see the solution as more of a tax. Stop letting people get cats/dogs for $20. I also don't think inspections are unreasonable. The government already inspects half of the industries, what's one more?
- jack_jennings 8y ago
  The insinuation that people that adopt “less desireable” animals are less responsible is verging on insulting. The people that I have met that are working for neglected animals are some of the most dedicated and compassionate people that I know. Meanwhile, on any given day you can find “fancy” breeds that have been abandoned at the municipal shelter by owners that couldn’t be bothered to accomodate them.
  - learc83 8y ago
    >Meanwhile, on any given day you can find “fancy” breeds that have been abandoned at the municipal shelter by owners that couldn’t be bothered to accomodate them. At least in my area, any expensive breeds (any pure breed that's not a Chihuahua or Pit Bull really) are scooped up by rescues almost immediately. Then if you want to adopt one, you have to go through an interview processes ran by people who are temporarily caring for the dog who are looking for reasons to disqualify you. The approval process is completely arbitrary and far too invasive. The president of the ASPCA was turned down by a rescue a few years ago, and he wrote about the process.
    - 8y ago
timthorn 8y ago
Here's a few links describing the regulatory situation in the UK: https://www.gov.uk/dog-breeding-licence-england-scotland-wales https://www.gov.uk/dog-breeding-licence-england-scotland-wal... https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/breeding/dog-breeding-regulation/faqs-dog-breeding-regulations-in-england/ https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/breeding/dog-breeding-regul... https://www.dogstrust.org.uk/news-events/issues-campaigns/partnershipaward/240718_local%20authority%20report_digital.pdf https://www.dogstrust.org.uk/news-events/issues-campaigns/pa...
bluedino 8y ago
How would you enforce a ban on backyard breeders? I personally detest them as they flood the market with unhealthy dogs.

ethbro 8y ago

The point about inspection overhead / regulatory capture is a good one. Regulation is difficult because of unintended consequences. So given a choice between "ban pet stores from selling bred animals" and "create a new bureaucracy to oversee animal conditions" (then pairing it with something like a transfer tax), the former is a lighter market touch. And if we want to get realpolitik, mongrels tend to have stronger genetics than pure-breds ("Life finds a way"), so this is probably long-term good for pets in general.

firethief 8y ago
But you need purebreds to get mongrels, otherwise you eventually wind up with mutts (which are healthier than purebreds but not as good as mongrels).
- johnkpaul 8y ago
  I thought that mutt and mongrel were synonyms. Is there some formal distinction?
  - ethbro 8y ago
    I meant it as a synonym, debated on which to use, and decided mongrel carried fewer pejorative connotations. 'Cross-breed' is term I've heard involving pure-bred ancestors. E.g. this adorable Bassador on Wikipedia: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_crossbreed#/media/File%3AFred_the_Bassador.jpg https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_crossbreed#/media/File%3...

meesles 8y ago

I find the overpopulation argument really interesting in how it compares to similar issues: 1. There's too many humans, killing humans to reduce the population isn't really a palatable solution to anyone. 2. There's too many cats/dogs, killing them seems much more reasonable to some, and awful to others. They're in the sweet spot between family and wildlife. 3. Pests (deer, rabbits, etc) are over-populating, killing them is pretty much A-OK. Personally I see a cultural issue akin to wastage. Especially in the US, we love to buy and throw stuff out all the time. I would hypothesize that people who buy/rescue mutts and less desirable breeds are more likely to abandon them after some time. Others who spend thousands of dollars on a specific breed they like will be more likely to keep it the duration of its life. I see the solution as more of a tax. Stop letting people get cats/dogs for $20. I also don't think inspections are unreasonable. The government already inspects half of the industries, what's one more?

jack_jennings 8y ago
The insinuation that people that adopt “less desireable” animals are less responsible is verging on insulting. The people that I have met that are working for neglected animals are some of the most dedicated and compassionate people that I know. Meanwhile, on any given day you can find “fancy” breeds that have been abandoned at the municipal shelter by owners that couldn’t be bothered to accomodate them.
- learc83 8y ago
  >Meanwhile, on any given day you can find “fancy” breeds that have been abandoned at the municipal shelter by owners that couldn’t be bothered to accomodate them. At least in my area, any expensive breeds (any pure breed that's not a Chihuahua or Pit Bull really) are scooped up by rescues almost immediately. Then if you want to adopt one, you have to go through an interview processes ran by people who are temporarily caring for the dog who are looking for reasons to disqualify you. The approval process is completely arbitrary and far too invasive. The president of the ASPCA was turned down by a rescue a few years ago, and he wrote about the process.
  - 8y ago

timthorn 8y ago

Here's a few links describing the regulatory situation in the UK: https://www.gov.uk/dog-breeding-licence-england-scotland-wales https://www.gov.uk/dog-breeding-licence-england-scotland-wal... https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/breeding/dog-breeding-regulation/faqs-dog-breeding-regulations-in-england/ https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/breeding/dog-breeding-regul... https://www.dogstrust.org.uk/news-events/issues-campaigns/partnershipaward/240718_local%20authority%20report_digital.pdf https://www.dogstrust.org.uk/news-events/issues-campaigns/pa...

bluedino 8y ago

How would you enforce a ban on backyard breeders? I personally detest them as they flood the market with unhealthy dogs.