8 ms·

Diaspora Foundation: A Child-Porn Sharing Network

41 points by Todamont 8y ago

I ran a popular D* pod for about 7 years, called Cryptospora.net. We had approximately 30,000 users signed up. It was with much regret that I I shut my pod down, permanently, last month. Here's why. There were certain neo-Nazis who would get banned from pod after pod, but they just kept signing up at new or foreign-language pods, and it was impossible to prevent neo-Nazi content from being shared to my pod and being displayed in my feed. There is CURRENTLY a large amount of child pornography being shared on the D* network. It became impossible for me to stop child-porn content or neo-Nazi hatespeech content from being shared to my pod and displayed to my users. I made a thread in the Discourse channel for Diaspora podmins, and a github issue ticket. I suggested that the programmer community within D* come together to implement some form of OPTIONAL federated moderation system, so that I could import ban lists from other pods (ones with an actual staff) and make my ban lists available for other pods to import, based on some standardized TOS formats. The D* core devs BANNED me from their CENTRALIZED forums for podmins, including their Discourse channel, their Github issues system, and their reddit sub. Apparently discussions about moderation are a bannable offense for these guys, and they are ADAMANT that there will NEVER be any effective network-wide system for preventing child-pornography abuse being posted to their network. I would suggest that if YCombinator still owns shares in the Diaspora Foundation, they should consider rescinding ownership of those shares, and potentially suing the Diaspora Foundation for their money back. YCombinator should not be an unwilling share-owner of a child-porn sharing network.

Carpetsmoker 8y ago
Do you have links to the GitHub issue and other discussions that you were banned for? Edit: found one: https://github.com/diaspora/diaspora/issues/7866 https://github.com/diaspora/diaspora/issues/7866
Todamont 8y ago
Here you go! https://github.com/diaspora/diaspora/issues/7865 https://github.com/diaspora/diaspora/issues/7865 https://github.com/diaspora/diaspora/issues/7866 https://github.com/diaspora/diaspora/issues/7866
- Todamont 8y ago
  https://github.com/diaspora/diaspora/issues/7464 https://github.com/diaspora/diaspora/issues/7464 And this one :) This is the thread they said was relevant to the discussion and that I should comment on, and then they banned me for "spamming" their issues ticket system when I commented on it.
  - mcv 8y ago
    I don't think it's discussing moderation that got you banned, but spamming github issues about it. A single issue should suffice. I can't verify it, but they refer to you spamming their discourse too. That said, I'd expect a discussion on this topic to be welcomed. The only reason they could reasonably be annoyed by you is if you keep rehashing points they've already discussed. In that case, the right approach would be to read and understand how their current moderation tools work, the reasons why they work that way, and their reasons for not doing the thing you propose. If they don't address your concerns, state your case clearly and unambiguously (in one github issue you seemed to be arguing for centralised moderation, which is obviously not going to happen; emphasise that it's a voluntary choice for podmins who don't want to manually block repeat offenders) and explain why their current system doesn't address this. That said, Diaspora development seems to be incredibly slow, so maybe they're not very eager to add completely new features that not many people are interested in. Understand that if you're not going to write this code, it's probably not going to happen. But if childporn is really clearly a problem, and Diaspora is clearly unwilling to address the issue by considering tools to help podmins, then posting on a blog of your own could be a good way to initiate that discussion in a way that they can't block.
    - Todamont 8y ago
      "Spamming" issue tickets? You mean leaving comments? "Spam" is an unsolicited advertisement for a product or service, I DEFINITELY did not do that, so I think you should be more precise with your language. They don't have a Terms of Service that says you are not allowed to make comments on issue tickets, so I did not violate any terms of service. IMHO "spamming" is the excuse that all censors use, when they censor you.
Todamont 8y ago
I couldn't find the discourse discussions I started, apparently they deleted them when they banned me from discourse, for 1000 years. Here's an interesting discussion where they talk about how users shouldn't be banned from discourse / loomio, which I found interesting, though: https://discourse.diasporafoundation.org/t/banning-users-from-loomio/371/12 https://discourse.diasporafoundation.org/t/banning-users-fro...
sierdolij 8y ago
This is the problem of decentralized, too open systems (aka anarchy): it enables terrorism, child porn, violent hate groups, organized crime and other extremists and criminals. There needs to be a reputation system and stronger limits to gradually give a user more access. Also, if they're required to pay for what they use (micropayment) to keep resources on servers, they're less likely to post illegal junk. Otherwise, crazy jerks will turn a free service into a Tragedy of the Commons, and everyone loses. We need more user-supported, non-profit sensible social media, productivity and other web apps to replace the for-profit and the wild-west ones that don't scale so well without major work. That being said, free often becomes junk because there's not the focus and professionalism to make something cool. TL;DR - free doesn't scale without meaningful accountability
- miguelrochefort 8y ago
  Filtering must be inbound, not outbound. Users should be able to broadcast whatever they want, including highly illegal stuff. Users should be able to filter whatever they receive, based on their individual preferences.
  - paulcole 8y ago
    > Users should be able to broadcast whatever they want, including highly illegal stuff Sorry, but I disagree here. Even in something that’s decentralized, the user relies on someone and that someone most definitely has the right (and ethical responsibility) to stop the spread of “highly illegal stuff.”
    - miguelrochefort 8y ago
      "Highly illegal stuff" is relative, in time.and space. How do you suggest we enforce that?
      - paulcole 8y ago
        If I’m making a decision to delete something based on it’s legality, I refer to the laws that apply to me. Not that tricky.
vfclists 8y ago
What is D? What is the Diaspora Foundation? How does the Diaspora Foundation differ from the Diaspora software? Does deploying the software make you automatically a member of D and the Diaspora Foundation?
- Todamont 8y ago
  No, I think you would have to be like added to their github group to be considered a "member" of the D* foundation. It used to be a private company but then it turned into a non-profit thing with volunteer coders. From what I can tell there are maybe 5 or 6 active devs, and they have NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER with the amount of CP on their network, and NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER blatantly censoring anyone who suggests a plan of action to stop the CP from being posted to their network. It seems to me that they may be PROTECTING their CP network from public view and legal scrutiny.
DanBC 8y ago
You can report images of child sexual abuse to the Internet Watch Foundation, an organisation who works with law enforcement internationally to remove these images. https://www.iwf.org.uk/ https://www.iwf.org.uk/
- Todamont 8y ago
  Thanks, I have filed a complaint with them now. I've also notified the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. I basically filed a complaint naming the D* core devs as potentially involved in child sex trafficking. That's very disturbing to me.
  - awaywopassd 8y ago
    Sure they should address this but this is a bit crazy.
    - Todamont 8y ago
      Why do you think it's crazy for me to file criminal reports about CP that I saw on the Diaspora Network? Should I just ignore that kind of thing, you think? I just submitted a tip to the FBI.
vfclists 8y ago
You used a headline grabbing/clickbait title such as Diaspora Foundation: A Child Porn Sharing Neywork, in order to draw attention to a lack of a federated moderation system in the Diaspora network system. In my view this alone would be a good reason for you to be banned and cast out from those groups. FWIW I am not involved in those groups and I don't even know what happens in them, but the fact that you used such a title to draw attention to your cause shows that you have a cause which is not compatible with their ethos and other such decentralized systems. Decentralized networks have arisen in response to centralized and privately controlled services like Twitter, Youtube, Facebook, Paypal and Patreon which use they term hate speech, neo-nazi, populist as excuses to ban those whose political and social views they disagree with, and you seriously expect them to adopt some sort of centralized control system. Good luck to you. The same can be said of the TOR network, which seems to have become a system abused by all kinds of shady operators, with child pornography networks, bitcoin extortionists, Islamist propaganda networks among those operating behind the anonymity it offers.. Are there any calls for some kind OPTIONAL federated moderation systems for the TOR network? How about Cloudflare, which has also come under criticism for protecting shady actors? As for the child porn issue, the Internet itself can be seen as a child porn network irrespective of what tools or services are used to access it, and the same can be said about its so called relationship with hate speech. As Jordan Peterson asks, who defines what hate speech is? As for the OPTIONAL part, things which are optional eventually morph into mandatory systems, with the possibility of operators who don't subscribe to such services being blocked simply for not using it.. Take a look at an organization such as Spamhaus, a supposedly optional but privately owned and controlled service, all the criticism and complaints of their abuse and misuse of a power over the years, and ask yourself why an organization committed to decentralized communication woud want such as system at the core of the services it provides. I say this again, good luck to you!!
- Todamont 8y ago
  Hey buddy, I'm seeing a ton of CP on the D* network. Maybe that's cool with you, but to me, it means that the D* network is a place for disseminating CP and potentially a place where child sex trafficking is occuring. Thats not sensationalism. If you think people should be banned for comments about moderation, I would suggest you don't understand the difference between fair moderation and censorship. Or maybe you just think CP is cool huh? Are you one of the D* core devs, is that why you are defending this network where child sex abuse pictures are being posted every day? IMHO people who scream CENSORSHIP when you start talking about removing CP and going after child predators, are usually child predators.
trev-dev 8y ago
I spent about a month or so tinkering with Diaspora and I feel your pain. Wherever free speech is paramount, it comes at a price. Some people feel that free speech and free "expression" shouldn't be free. I have rarely circled back to my Diaspora account since discovering similar disturbing images/messages. If it's helpful to you, there are many other decentralized networks. So far as I can tell, Mastodon has better moderation controls that can block entire instances. It doesn't stop bad things from happening. The only confort I can gleam from that is that those who do/say terrible stuff do so at the risk of being seen and discovered.

41 points by Todamont 8y ago

Carpetsmoker 8y ago

Do you have links to the GitHub issue and other discussions that you were banned for? Edit: found one: https://github.com/diaspora/diaspora/issues/7866 https://github.com/diaspora/diaspora/issues/7866

Todamont 8y ago

Here you go! https://github.com/diaspora/diaspora/issues/7865 https://github.com/diaspora/diaspora/issues/7865 https://github.com/diaspora/diaspora/issues/7866 https://github.com/diaspora/diaspora/issues/7866

Todamont 8y ago
https://github.com/diaspora/diaspora/issues/7464 https://github.com/diaspora/diaspora/issues/7464 And this one :) This is the thread they said was relevant to the discussion and that I should comment on, and then they banned me for "spamming" their issues ticket system when I commented on it.
- mcv 8y ago
  I don't think it's discussing moderation that got you banned, but spamming github issues about it. A single issue should suffice. I can't verify it, but they refer to you spamming their discourse too. That said, I'd expect a discussion on this topic to be welcomed. The only reason they could reasonably be annoyed by you is if you keep rehashing points they've already discussed. In that case, the right approach would be to read and understand how their current moderation tools work, the reasons why they work that way, and their reasons for not doing the thing you propose. If they don't address your concerns, state your case clearly and unambiguously (in one github issue you seemed to be arguing for centralised moderation, which is obviously not going to happen; emphasise that it's a voluntary choice for podmins who don't want to manually block repeat offenders) and explain why their current system doesn't address this. That said, Diaspora development seems to be incredibly slow, so maybe they're not very eager to add completely new features that not many people are interested in. Understand that if you're not going to write this code, it's probably not going to happen. But if childporn is really clearly a problem, and Diaspora is clearly unwilling to address the issue by considering tools to help podmins, then posting on a blog of your own could be a good way to initiate that discussion in a way that they can't block.
  - Todamont 8y ago
    "Spamming" issue tickets? You mean leaving comments? "Spam" is an unsolicited advertisement for a product or service, I DEFINITELY did not do that, so I think you should be more precise with your language. They don't have a Terms of Service that says you are not allowed to make comments on issue tickets, so I did not violate any terms of service. IMHO "spamming" is the excuse that all censors use, when they censor you.

Todamont 8y ago

I couldn't find the discourse discussions I started, apparently they deleted them when they banned me from discourse, for 1000 years. Here's an interesting discussion where they talk about how users shouldn't be banned from discourse / loomio, which I found interesting, though: https://discourse.diasporafoundation.org/t/banning-users-from-loomio/371/12 https://discourse.diasporafoundation.org/t/banning-users-fro...

sierdolij 8y ago

This is the problem of decentralized, too open systems (aka anarchy): it enables terrorism, child porn, violent hate groups, organized crime and other extremists and criminals. There needs to be a reputation system and stronger limits to gradually give a user more access. Also, if they're required to pay for what they use (micropayment) to keep resources on servers, they're less likely to post illegal junk. Otherwise, crazy jerks will turn a free service into a Tragedy of the Commons, and everyone loses. We need more user-supported, non-profit sensible social media, productivity and other web apps to replace the for-profit and the wild-west ones that don't scale so well without major work. That being said, free often becomes junk because there's not the focus and professionalism to make something cool. TL;DR - free doesn't scale without meaningful accountability

miguelrochefort 8y ago
Filtering must be inbound, not outbound. Users should be able to broadcast whatever they want, including highly illegal stuff. Users should be able to filter whatever they receive, based on their individual preferences.
- paulcole 8y ago
  > Users should be able to broadcast whatever they want, including highly illegal stuff Sorry, but I disagree here. Even in something that’s decentralized, the user relies on someone and that someone most definitely has the right (and ethical responsibility) to stop the spread of “highly illegal stuff.”
  - miguelrochefort 8y ago
    "Highly illegal stuff" is relative, in time.and space. How do you suggest we enforce that?
    - paulcole 8y ago
      If I’m making a decision to delete something based on it’s legality, I refer to the laws that apply to me. Not that tricky.

vfclists 8y ago

What is D? What is the Diaspora Foundation? How does the Diaspora Foundation differ from the Diaspora software? Does deploying the software make you automatically a member of D and the Diaspora Foundation?

Todamont 8y ago
No, I think you would have to be like added to their github group to be considered a "member" of the D* foundation. It used to be a private company but then it turned into a non-profit thing with volunteer coders. From what I can tell there are maybe 5 or 6 active devs, and they have NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER with the amount of CP on their network, and NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER blatantly censoring anyone who suggests a plan of action to stop the CP from being posted to their network. It seems to me that they may be PROTECTING their CP network from public view and legal scrutiny.

DanBC 8y ago

You can report images of child sexual abuse to the Internet Watch Foundation, an organisation who works with law enforcement internationally to remove these images. https://www.iwf.org.uk/ https://www.iwf.org.uk/

Todamont 8y ago
Thanks, I have filed a complaint with them now. I've also notified the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. I basically filed a complaint naming the D* core devs as potentially involved in child sex trafficking. That's very disturbing to me.
- awaywopassd 8y ago
  Sure they should address this but this is a bit crazy.
  - Todamont 8y ago
    Why do you think it's crazy for me to file criminal reports about CP that I saw on the Diaspora Network? Should I just ignore that kind of thing, you think? I just submitted a tip to the FBI.

vfclists 8y ago

You used a headline grabbing/clickbait title such as Diaspora Foundation: A Child Porn Sharing Neywork, in order to draw attention to a lack of a federated moderation system in the Diaspora network system. In my view this alone would be a good reason for you to be banned and cast out from those groups. FWIW I am not involved in those groups and I don't even know what happens in them, but the fact that you used such a title to draw attention to your cause shows that you have a cause which is not compatible with their ethos and other such decentralized systems. Decentralized networks have arisen in response to centralized and privately controlled services like Twitter, Youtube, Facebook, Paypal and Patreon which use they term hate speech, neo-nazi, populist as excuses to ban those whose political and social views they disagree with, and you seriously expect them to adopt some sort of centralized control system. Good luck to you. The same can be said of the TOR network, which seems to have become a system abused by all kinds of shady operators, with child pornography networks, bitcoin extortionists, Islamist propaganda networks among those operating behind the anonymity it offers.. Are there any calls for some kind OPTIONAL federated moderation systems for the TOR network? How about Cloudflare, which has also come under criticism for protecting shady actors? As for the child porn issue, the Internet itself can be seen as a child porn network irrespective of what tools or services are used to access it, and the same can be said about its so called relationship with hate speech. As Jordan Peterson asks, who defines what hate speech is? As for the OPTIONAL part, things which are optional eventually morph into mandatory systems, with the possibility of operators who don't subscribe to such services being blocked simply for not using it.. Take a look at an organization such as Spamhaus, a supposedly optional but privately owned and controlled service, all the criticism and complaints of their abuse and misuse of a power over the years, and ask yourself why an organization committed to decentralized communication woud want such as system at the core of the services it provides. I say this again, good luck to you!!

Todamont 8y ago
Hey buddy, I'm seeing a ton of CP on the D* network. Maybe that's cool with you, but to me, it means that the D* network is a place for disseminating CP and potentially a place where child sex trafficking is occuring. Thats not sensationalism. If you think people should be banned for comments about moderation, I would suggest you don't understand the difference between fair moderation and censorship. Or maybe you just think CP is cool huh? Are you one of the D* core devs, is that why you are defending this network where child sex abuse pictures are being posted every day? IMHO people who scream CENSORSHIP when you start talking about removing CP and going after child predators, are usually child predators.

trev-dev 8y ago

I spent about a month or so tinkering with Diaspora and I feel your pain. Wherever free speech is paramount, it comes at a price. Some people feel that free speech and free "expression" shouldn't be free. I have rarely circled back to my Diaspora account since discovering similar disturbing images/messages. If it's helpful to you, there are many other decentralized networks. So far as I can tell, Mastodon has better moderation controls that can block entire instances. It doesn't stop bad things from happening. The only confort I can gleam from that is that those who do/say terrible stuff do so at the risk of being seen and discovered.