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> Meanwhile, some people are more than happy to spend $100,000 on a graphic design degree that may get them a job paying roughly $40,000 a year > A lot of that

> Meanwhile, some people are more than happy to spend $100,000 on a graphic design degree that may get them a job paying roughly $40,000 a year > A lot of that has to do with what Goldfarb likes to call the narrative—one that convinced kids that the only route to middle-class respectability was to get a college degree and that suggested failing to do so meant having failed at the American dream of upward mobility. To keep using the economist's terms, I would also say that 18-year-old high school seniors definitely qualify as "novice investors." Their philosophy can be summarized by Colin Hanks in the 2002 movie Orange County. When asked why he's so obsessed with getting into Stanford University and college more generally, he snaps back, "Because that's what you do after high school!" Too often I see articles about student debt make a comment about how students have been tricked or misled into pursuing a degree. Why does no one talk about the alternative? Let's talk about the alternative: You don't get a degree and now you're resume gets automatically thrown out of most applications. Only a small fraction of those without degrees manage to get well-paying jobs; they're the outliers. Albeit unrelated to employment rate, look at the salary differences: https://www.bls.gov/careeroutlook/2018/data-on-display/education-pays.htm https://www.bls.gov/careeroutlook/2018/data-on-display/educa... Some might say it's worth making $X/yr and debt-free than making $Y/yr with $Z debt but this only holds true when Y > (P*Z + X) where P is the percentage of the total initial debt being paid off per year (e.g. P = 0.2 if you're paying $10k/yr to get rid of a $50k debt). And these values are hard to predict.

woolvalley 8y ago
If the only reason why your buying a degree is get past an automated resume filter, and they are all the same otherwise, then for god sakes, don't buy the porsche, buy the used toyota!
- AstralStorm 8y ago
  Except the filters look at the brand.
cddotdotslash 8y ago
> Let's talk about the alternative: You don't get a degree and now you're resume gets automatically thrown out of most applications. The decision to get a degree is not a binary one. It's possible to get a degree in a higher-paying field. Or, go to a community college for 2 years and then transfer. Or pick a state school over a $60k/yr private school. Or choose your second choice school that offers more scholarships. I think some of the blame rests on our guidance counselors and parents who often do little to make the connection between degrees, debt, and post-graduate earnings obvious to students. Too often the question we pose to high school juniors is "what do you like to do the most?" rather than "is there an intersection between something you like to do and opportunities for a degree-holder in that field after graduation?"
- wmeredith 8y ago
  Can we dispel with the “pick a state school” wisdom? The universities in my state have been systematically defunded over the last two decades (and the trend continues). It costs $25k/year to attend The University of Missouri. $100k+ of debt for any four year degree from Art History to Engineering.
RussianCow 8y ago
I don't have any statistics to back this up, but I would guess that in many (most?) fields that don't absolutely require degrees for legal/other reasons, someone who spends 4 years actually working in their field is going to be in at least as good of shape as someone who spent those 4 years getting a degree (and maybe even better, depending on the field). That said, getting that first job without the degree is the hard part—connections and luck play a huge role here. Everything after that becomes substantially easier, and the benefit of a degree becomes lower.
- jarfil 8y ago
  Most higher degrees are supposed to teach some higher level stuff from a broader perspective than what will be required on a daily basis on the job, so someone who only does that particular job might be better at doing it, but will lack the ability to see beyond, and will still require degree-like learning. Whether it's better to start with the broader or the narrower learning first... well, that's debatable, and it might boil down to personal differences.
  - AstralStorm 8y ago
    Except they often do not. It's funny, what's the bigger perspective on an art degree that will help you on the job? I can barely argue for it in programming for a math based CS degree or electronics. Less so in whole fields of medicine...
JumpCrisscross 8y ago
> spend $100,000 on a graphic design degree that may get them a job paying roughly $40,000 a year The cost isn't $100k. The minimum wage pays $15k per year [1]. Four years of lost wages equals $60,000. Add that to the tuition debt and you have a real cost of $160,000. The surplus wage is apparently no more than $25k. Even here, we see a 15% return on investment. Not shoddy per se, and certainly a sustainable debt load. [1] https://www.epi.org/publication/minimum-wage-workers-poverty-anymore-raising/ https://www.epi.org/publication/minimum-wage-workers-poverty...
- AstralStorm 8y ago
  Presuming you actually get that job. If you do not, you will be wholly unable to pay off this debt. Even if you do, you cannot just set all 40k to pay for it, you have to live somewhere and probably have a family, not insignificant expenses. So real repayment rate might be as low as 5k/year... and this assumes you keep in good health, do not get laid off etc. This is at best a 10 year debt for your typical middle class. And where do you get a house here on top?
ajtaylor 8y ago
Or you could go into the "blue collar" trades like plumbing, electrical work, etc. After you get some experience, the trades can be a very lucrative line of work. Albeit you have to sweat and get your hands dirty. Mike Rowe has a few very persuasive thoughts on the subject as well, and can do it much more eloquently than I can.
- nightski 8y ago
  It's also dooming yourself to a life of little mental stimulation and lots of repetition. I have no problem with physical labor (love house projects and hobbies), but these jobs would suck the life out of me for that reason.
  - FeloniousHam 8y ago
    My father was an electrician by trade, but generally very capable. He loved the problem solving aspect of his job. Wiring and code are not so far apart as you might think. I've often felt, given the pedestrian nature of the problems I have to solve in code, he got the better end of the bargain.
- KozmoNau7 8y ago
  Mike Rowe is deep in the pocket of the Koch brothers, he's very anti-union. He wants people to work hard and suck it up, instead of unionizing and fighting for fair treatment.
LyndsySimon 8y ago
> Only a small fraction of those without degrees manage to get well-paying jobs; they're the outliers. Is that because it's so much more difficult to get a well-paying job without a degree, or that people who are capable of getting and holding a well-paying job are disproportionately getting degrees?

woolvalley 8y ago

If the only reason why your buying a degree is get past an automated resume filter, and they are all the same otherwise, then for god sakes, don't buy the porsche, buy the used toyota!

AstralStorm 8y ago
Except the filters look at the brand.

cddotdotslash 8y ago

> Let's talk about the alternative: You don't get a degree and now you're resume gets automatically thrown out of most applications. The decision to get a degree is not a binary one. It's possible to get a degree in a higher-paying field. Or, go to a community college for 2 years and then transfer. Or pick a state school over a $60k/yr private school. Or choose your second choice school that offers more scholarships. I think some of the blame rests on our guidance counselors and parents who often do little to make the connection between degrees, debt, and post-graduate earnings obvious to students. Too often the question we pose to high school juniors is "what do you like to do the most?" rather than "is there an intersection between something you like to do and opportunities for a degree-holder in that field after graduation?"

wmeredith 8y ago
Can we dispel with the “pick a state school” wisdom? The universities in my state have been systematically defunded over the last two decades (and the trend continues). It costs $25k/year to attend The University of Missouri. $100k+ of debt for any four year degree from Art History to Engineering.

RussianCow 8y ago

I don't have any statistics to back this up, but I would guess that in many (most?) fields that don't absolutely require degrees for legal/other reasons, someone who spends 4 years actually working in their field is going to be in at least as good of shape as someone who spent those 4 years getting a degree (and maybe even better, depending on the field). That said, getting that first job without the degree is the hard part—connections and luck play a huge role here. Everything after that becomes substantially easier, and the benefit of a degree becomes lower.

jarfil 8y ago
Most higher degrees are supposed to teach some higher level stuff from a broader perspective than what will be required on a daily basis on the job, so someone who only does that particular job might be better at doing it, but will lack the ability to see beyond, and will still require degree-like learning. Whether it's better to start with the broader or the narrower learning first... well, that's debatable, and it might boil down to personal differences.
- AstralStorm 8y ago
  Except they often do not. It's funny, what's the bigger perspective on an art degree that will help you on the job? I can barely argue for it in programming for a math based CS degree or electronics. Less so in whole fields of medicine...

JumpCrisscross 8y ago

> spend $100,000 on a graphic design degree that may get them a job paying roughly $40,000 a year The cost isn't $100k. The minimum wage pays $15k per year [1]. Four years of lost wages equals $60,000. Add that to the tuition debt and you have a real cost of $160,000. The surplus wage is apparently no more than $25k. Even here, we see a 15% return on investment. Not shoddy per se, and certainly a sustainable debt load. [1] https://www.epi.org/publication/minimum-wage-workers-poverty-anymore-raising/ https://www.epi.org/publication/minimum-wage-workers-poverty...

AstralStorm 8y ago
Presuming you actually get that job. If you do not, you will be wholly unable to pay off this debt. Even if you do, you cannot just set all 40k to pay for it, you have to live somewhere and probably have a family, not insignificant expenses. So real repayment rate might be as low as 5k/year... and this assumes you keep in good health, do not get laid off etc. This is at best a 10 year debt for your typical middle class. And where do you get a house here on top?

ajtaylor 8y ago

Or you could go into the "blue collar" trades like plumbing, electrical work, etc. After you get some experience, the trades can be a very lucrative line of work. Albeit you have to sweat and get your hands dirty. Mike Rowe has a few very persuasive thoughts on the subject as well, and can do it much more eloquently than I can.

nightski 8y ago
It's also dooming yourself to a life of little mental stimulation and lots of repetition. I have no problem with physical labor (love house projects and hobbies), but these jobs would suck the life out of me for that reason.
- FeloniousHam 8y ago
  My father was an electrician by trade, but generally very capable. He loved the problem solving aspect of his job. Wiring and code are not so far apart as you might think. I've often felt, given the pedestrian nature of the problems I have to solve in code, he got the better end of the bargain.
KozmoNau7 8y ago
Mike Rowe is deep in the pocket of the Koch brothers, he's very anti-union. He wants people to work hard and suck it up, instead of unionizing and fighting for fair treatment.

LyndsySimon 8y ago

> Only a small fraction of those without degrees manage to get well-paying jobs; they're the outliers. Is that because it's so much more difficult to get a well-paying job without a degree, or that people who are capable of getting and holding a well-paying job are disproportionately getting degrees?