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How old, in years, your EV is? I bet you do not know anyone with a moderately used EV with more than five years. If I'm right wait a bit before try so sure con

by xte 8y ago

How old, in years, your EV is? I bet you do not know anyone with a moderately used EV with more than five years. If I'm right wait a bit before try so sure conclusion. I know few people with few not-so-new EVs (Renault ZE series most of them) and hear their practical experience outside marketing. No one of them is willing to buy an EV again.

outworlder 8y ago
Maybe it is a problem with Renault then. Go hang out in Leaf forums instead (and the Nissan Leaf doesn't even have a thermally managed battery). I have one. I haven't lost a SINGLE capacity bar after 3 years (first year saw really heavy usage with multiple quick charges a week). Unless it decides to self-destruct after 5 years, I would expect it to last a while. Yes, they lose maximum capacity over time. Very slowly. They still work. This is not a phone or laptop.
- xte 8y ago
  No, thanks, I do not ask on some vendor's forum. I prefer ask people I can trust as sources, not eventually disguised marketing guys or bot. As I write before I say most of them are on Renault, But one is on a Tesla. This last one essentially stop using it because it's too large for him in city and it can't use it because of reduced range to go to it's country house or on mountains to ski without recharge... The problem, beside battery life, Renault ZE have and nobody like to recall it in marketing is 85 euro/month fee for battery (mandatory) rental. BTW battery tech is the very same of phones, laptop, cordless drill etc, any other devices that use lithium ion battery. Only very few vendors offer other option that last even less than Li-Ion battery.
kirrent 8y ago
Battery degradation is less a function of age and more of thermal management, depth of discharge, and number of cycles. Along with more durable battery design, these variables can be managed through better thermal management and more conservative battery use. Durability of EV batteries has improved in leaps and bounds in recent years.
danjayh 8y ago
I have a Ford Fusion Energi plug-in. Force air cooled using the computer's choice of cabin air or outside air (no dedicated AC evaporator). Battery is at 72% capacity (5.5 total kwh of 7.6 when new) after 40k and 3.3 years. Usable capacity is at 65% (~3.7-3.9 kwh down from 5.7-5.9 new). I would never buy another plug-in or electric vehicle that doesn't have some form of active cooling powered by the air conditioning sytem. Liquid cooling without a chiller powered from the AC system is insufficient. At minimum, chilled air routed from a dedicated evaporator through the battery (older Escape hybrid, Outlander PHEV), and ideally, a liquid system with a heat exchanger to the AC system (Tesla, Volt, Bolt, Pacifica hybrid, maybe others?) Anyway, with Michigan's $0.15/kwh electricity and a climate that's either way too hot or way too cold, the break-even point for electric vs. gas is about $1.90 a gallon ... so at least for now (with gas below the break-even point), it doesn't hurt so bad that the battery capacity is so low.
- xte 8y ago
  Wait: that's NOT an EV. That's an hybrid car that can run on electricity only for a very limited distance and limited speed. You basically do not use your battery, only move it around.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - freehunter 8y ago
    Is it a vehicle that's capable of being exclusively powered by electricity? Yes? Then it's an electric vehicle. All EVs are only capable of running on electricity for a limited distance and limited speed. Eventually they all run out.
    - danjayh 8y ago
      And the fusion energi can go 85mph in ev mode, so the speed is not limited in a meaningful way. You can also lock out the gas engine to keep from accidentally starting it with a heavy foot...
    - 8y ago
maxsilver 8y ago
> I bet you do not know anyone with a moderately used EV with more than five years. I have a Chevy Volt from 2013. Bought it used. It's now six years old and has nearly 60k miles on it -- 75% of those on EV-only miles. I have almost no decrease in range or capacity. (It was EPA rated to 35 miles range off the lot. I got a real world 30 miles range yesterday, in below-freezing weather with aggressive snow tires on it, in a Michigan winter. When the weather warms up, it will go right back to 35 miles, just like it did last summer). I'm never buying a gasoline car ever again. I'll buy Volts until they can't be found, and then I'll probably switch to a Bolt or equivalent. The trick is to buy a well-designed, thermally managed battery. If you are lazy about thermals, the battery will kill itself. (See the original Nissan Leafs, anything from Ford, etc). But that has nothing to do with EV battery tech viability, and everything to do with car companies being lazy or cheap. A properly designed EV battery will easily last over 10 years and over 100,000 miles. We have lots of examples of this (from Tesla, Chevy, and others) to prove it.
- xte 8y ago
  Well... If for you 30-35 miles are an acceptable range ok, for me it's far, far less then my need. And I talk about daily life, not counting holidays...
- ams6110 8y ago
  > A properly designed EV battery will easily last over 10 years and over 100,000 miles The probem for me is, that's on the young end of the sort of cars I'm interested in buying. The newest car I own is a 13 years old Honda that has 190,000 miles.

by xte 8y ago

outworlder 8y ago

Maybe it is a problem with Renault then. Go hang out in Leaf forums instead (and the Nissan Leaf doesn't even have a thermally managed battery). I have one. I haven't lost a SINGLE capacity bar after 3 years (first year saw really heavy usage with multiple quick charges a week). Unless it decides to self-destruct after 5 years, I would expect it to last a while. Yes, they lose maximum capacity over time. Very slowly. They still work. This is not a phone or laptop.

xte 8y ago
No, thanks, I do not ask on some vendor's forum. I prefer ask people I can trust as sources, not eventually disguised marketing guys or bot. As I write before I say most of them are on Renault, But one is on a Tesla. This last one essentially stop using it because it's too large for him in city and it can't use it because of reduced range to go to it's country house or on mountains to ski without recharge... The problem, beside battery life, Renault ZE have and nobody like to recall it in marketing is 85 euro/month fee for battery (mandatory) rental. BTW battery tech is the very same of phones, laptop, cordless drill etc, any other devices that use lithium ion battery. Only very few vendors offer other option that last even less than Li-Ion battery.

kirrent 8y ago

Battery degradation is less a function of age and more of thermal management, depth of discharge, and number of cycles. Along with more durable battery design, these variables can be managed through better thermal management and more conservative battery use. Durability of EV batteries has improved in leaps and bounds in recent years.

danjayh 8y ago

I have a Ford Fusion Energi plug-in. Force air cooled using the computer's choice of cabin air or outside air (no dedicated AC evaporator). Battery is at 72% capacity (5.5 total kwh of 7.6 when new) after 40k and 3.3 years. Usable capacity is at 65% (~3.7-3.9 kwh down from 5.7-5.9 new). I would never buy another plug-in or electric vehicle that doesn't have some form of active cooling powered by the air conditioning sytem. Liquid cooling without a chiller powered from the AC system is insufficient. At minimum, chilled air routed from a dedicated evaporator through the battery (older Escape hybrid, Outlander PHEV), and ideally, a liquid system with a heat exchanger to the AC system (Tesla, Volt, Bolt, Pacifica hybrid, maybe others?) Anyway, with Michigan's $0.15/kwh electricity and a climate that's either way too hot or way too cold, the break-even point for electric vs. gas is about $1.90 a gallon ... so at least for now (with gas below the break-even point), it doesn't hurt so bad that the battery capacity is so low.

xte 8y ago
Wait: that's NOT an EV. That's an hybrid car that can run on electricity only for a very limited distance and limited speed. You basically do not use your battery, only move it around.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- freehunter 8y ago
  Is it a vehicle that's capable of being exclusively powered by electricity? Yes? Then it's an electric vehicle. All EVs are only capable of running on electricity for a limited distance and limited speed. Eventually they all run out.
  - danjayh 8y ago
    And the fusion energi can go 85mph in ev mode, so the speed is not limited in a meaningful way. You can also lock out the gas engine to keep from accidentally starting it with a heavy foot...
  - 8y ago

maxsilver 8y ago

> I bet you do not know anyone with a moderately used EV with more than five years. I have a Chevy Volt from 2013. Bought it used. It's now six years old and has nearly 60k miles on it -- 75% of those on EV-only miles. I have almost no decrease in range or capacity. (It was EPA rated to 35 miles range off the lot. I got a real world 30 miles range yesterday, in below-freezing weather with aggressive snow tires on it, in a Michigan winter. When the weather warms up, it will go right back to 35 miles, just like it did last summer). I'm never buying a gasoline car ever again. I'll buy Volts until they can't be found, and then I'll probably switch to a Bolt or equivalent. The trick is to buy a well-designed, thermally managed battery. If you are lazy about thermals, the battery will kill itself. (See the original Nissan Leafs, anything from Ford, etc). But that has nothing to do with EV battery tech viability, and everything to do with car companies being lazy or cheap. A properly designed EV battery will easily last over 10 years and over 100,000 miles. We have lots of examples of this (from Tesla, Chevy, and others) to prove it.

xte 8y ago
Well... If for you 30-35 miles are an acceptable range ok, for me it's far, far less then my need. And I talk about daily life, not counting holidays...
ams6110 8y ago
> A properly designed EV battery will easily last over 10 years and over 100,000 miles The probem for me is, that's on the young end of the sort of cars I'm interested in buying. The newest car I own is a 13 years old Honda that has 190,000 miles.