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Scooters and bikes are not exclusive of mass transit -- they complement mass transit by working on the "last mile" problem that no mass transit system has ever

Scooters and bikes are not exclusive of mass transit -- they complement mass transit by working on the "last mile" problem that no mass transit system has ever really found a good solution to.

naravara 8y ago
In a walkable area there is no "last mile" problem for able bodied people. A mile is a perfectly reasonable 20 minute walk provided the streets are safe. And if the streets are built safely, scooters and bikes will be usable as a natural consequence. And if you're disabled, scooters and bikes aren't helping you much anyway. Scooters and bikes are great supplements to a system, but they won't actually do much good without a mass transit system to be the backbone for getting around.
- closeparen 8y ago
  20 minutes is practically an entire commute. It’s not at all reasonable to burn that much time on the last mile alone.
  - naravara 8y ago
    >20 minutes is practically an entire commute. It’s not at all reasonable to burn that much time on the last mile alone. If 20 minutes is "practically an entire commute" then you're already in a dense enough area to where transit coverage should minimize the number of people who are a mile away. At that point, proximity to transit just becomes part of what you pay for in your house. If the transit is there, development patterns will tend to build up around it.
    - closeparen 8y ago
      The median commute time in the US is 25 minutes, up to 32 in the most congested metro areas. This is overwhelmingly due to driving on freeways across suburbia, enabled by sufficiently low density.
      - naravara 8y ago
        >The median commute time in the US is 25 minutes, up to 32 in the most congested metro areas. This is overwhelmingly due to driving on freeways across suburbia, enabled by sufficiently low density. Firstly, that's more like exurbia than suburbia. Suburbia is characterized by low density sprawl surrounding a denser, urban core that acts as the economic anchor. This is also where the nightmarishly long commute times tend to be: (https://www.caliper.com/featured-maps/xus-commute-time-maptitude-map.jpg.pagespeed.ic.PPOpHdn7tX.jpg https://www.caliper.com/featured-maps/xus-commute-time-mapti...). Secondly, people decide where to live and work based on commute times. In other words, people consciously choose to live in places that are within a 30 minute commute from work, and they structure their days (when they wake up, when they leave the office, etc) around minimizing it. This same mechanic works if the transit is available. People will consciously choose to live closer to the transit hubs that minimize the lengths of their commutes, promoting density around the bus or train routes. This is why the "last mile" problem is not as relevant of a consideration as people think once you get past the "windshield bias" a bit. Firstly because if everyone is within a mile of a transit option then that means the [i]worst case scenario[/i] is that someone has to walk a mile, and most people will choose to live within a space that's even less than that. And secondly, because a mile isn't actually that terrible of a walk, especially if you make the walk a pleasant one. I live 2 and a half miles from my office. If I ride the bus it takes me about 20 minutes door to door with maybe 5 of those minutes involving walking to/from the bus-stop. If I walk the whole way it takes me about 45 minutes. Despite the walk being more than twice of long, though, I'm honestly indifferent between the two options. My only real consideration is whether I'm in a hurry or not, and usually if I'm in a REAL hurry I'll take a cab. Even if it's raining, I often just take my umbrella and walk the commute because the walk is, in itself, enjoyable. It's not just a means of conveyance, it's a stroll and a source of exercise. There are plenty of murals to look at, a park to stroll through, flowers and landscaping to see, shop windows to look in on, sidewalk cafes to people watch people on awkward first-dates, etc.
- magduf 8y ago
  >And if you're disabled, scooters and bikes aren't helping you much anyway. Lots of disabled Americans ride around on scooters (4-wheeled motorized carts). They would do much better on the streets of Europe where there's bike lanes and nice sidewalks than in suburban America, though they'd have problems navigating the shops.
  - naravara 8y ago
    >Lots of disabled Americans ride around on scooters (4-wheeled motorized carts). I believed we were talking about the razor scooters/scoot-share services, which are too finicky for people with mobility issues to be able to use on bumpy streets. The types of scooters you're talking about basically use the same infrastructure as wheelchairs. So if you're pedestrian friendly and have inclusive urban design (like curb-cuts) that won't really be a big deal.

Scooters and bikes are not exclusive of mass transit -- they complement mass transit by working on the "last mile" problem that no mass transit system has ever really found a good solution to.

naravara 8y ago

In a walkable area there is no "last mile" problem for able bodied people. A mile is a perfectly reasonable 20 minute walk provided the streets are safe. And if the streets are built safely, scooters and bikes will be usable as a natural consequence. And if you're disabled, scooters and bikes aren't helping you much anyway. Scooters and bikes are great supplements to a system, but they won't actually do much good without a mass transit system to be the backbone for getting around.

closeparen 8y ago
20 minutes is practically an entire commute. It’s not at all reasonable to burn that much time on the last mile alone.
- naravara 8y ago
  >20 minutes is practically an entire commute. It’s not at all reasonable to burn that much time on the last mile alone. If 20 minutes is "practically an entire commute" then you're already in a dense enough area to where transit coverage should minimize the number of people who are a mile away. At that point, proximity to transit just becomes part of what you pay for in your house. If the transit is there, development patterns will tend to build up around it.
  - closeparen 8y ago
    The median commute time in the US is 25 minutes, up to 32 in the most congested metro areas. This is overwhelmingly due to driving on freeways across suburbia, enabled by sufficiently low density.
    - naravara 8y ago
      >The median commute time in the US is 25 minutes, up to 32 in the most congested metro areas. This is overwhelmingly due to driving on freeways across suburbia, enabled by sufficiently low density. Firstly, that's more like exurbia than suburbia. Suburbia is characterized by low density sprawl surrounding a denser, urban core that acts as the economic anchor. This is also where the nightmarishly long commute times tend to be: (https://www.caliper.com/featured-maps/xus-commute-time-maptitude-map.jpg.pagespeed.ic.PPOpHdn7tX.jpg https://www.caliper.com/featured-maps/xus-commute-time-mapti...). Secondly, people decide where to live and work based on commute times. In other words, people consciously choose to live in places that are within a 30 minute commute from work, and they structure their days (when they wake up, when they leave the office, etc) around minimizing it. This same mechanic works if the transit is available. People will consciously choose to live closer to the transit hubs that minimize the lengths of their commutes, promoting density around the bus or train routes. This is why the "last mile" problem is not as relevant of a consideration as people think once you get past the "windshield bias" a bit. Firstly because if everyone is within a mile of a transit option then that means the [i]worst case scenario[/i] is that someone has to walk a mile, and most people will choose to live within a space that's even less than that. And secondly, because a mile isn't actually that terrible of a walk, especially if you make the walk a pleasant one. I live 2 and a half miles from my office. If I ride the bus it takes me about 20 minutes door to door with maybe 5 of those minutes involving walking to/from the bus-stop. If I walk the whole way it takes me about 45 minutes. Despite the walk being more than twice of long, though, I'm honestly indifferent between the two options. My only real consideration is whether I'm in a hurry or not, and usually if I'm in a REAL hurry I'll take a cab. Even if it's raining, I often just take my umbrella and walk the commute because the walk is, in itself, enjoyable. It's not just a means of conveyance, it's a stroll and a source of exercise. There are plenty of murals to look at, a park to stroll through, flowers and landscaping to see, shop windows to look in on, sidewalk cafes to people watch people on awkward first-dates, etc.
magduf 8y ago
>And if you're disabled, scooters and bikes aren't helping you much anyway. Lots of disabled Americans ride around on scooters (4-wheeled motorized carts). They would do much better on the streets of Europe where there's bike lanes and nice sidewalks than in suburban America, though they'd have problems navigating the shops.
- naravara 8y ago
  >Lots of disabled Americans ride around on scooters (4-wheeled motorized carts). I believed we were talking about the razor scooters/scoot-share services, which are too finicky for people with mobility issues to be able to use on bumpy streets. The types of scooters you're talking about basically use the same infrastructure as wheelchairs. So if you're pedestrian friendly and have inclusive urban design (like curb-cuts) that won't really be a big deal.