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This may not be the venue to get good answers but what are the likely costs of unionization in software? How would management respond to organized tech labor? W

This may not be the venue to get good answers but what are the likely costs of unionization in software? How would management respond to organized tech labor? What would be the economic impacts? Not looking for pro- or anti-union sloganeering, but real impacts. The economics of the tech sector would change dramatically with organized labor in computing, and I'm interested in how those changes would manifest.

jtolmar 8y ago
Software engineers would have extreme (maybe unprecedented?) striking power. It's an industry where the workers are needed for both interviewing and training, so hiring scabs would be extremely hard. Management knows that already, so they'll do whatever they can to stop unionization. Retaliating against attempts to unionize are illegal, but internal anti-union propaganda campaigns are common in other industries, and I think you can expect not just what already exists, but better-funded campaigns and targeted to people more like you. Management would also try other methods to get around the union. More outsourcing, contracting entire projects out and requesting documentation or support contracts. These don't work well - they always cost more than expected, take longer than expected, and are a pain to maintain - but they do work some, so with unions raising wages that'd move the bar towards a little more outsourcing. I'd also expect it to take management a while to relearn that outsourcing doesn't work very well, since it's been a while. Many companies will be willing to pay more for outsourced labor than union labor, because strong unions are a long-term threat to the investor class. If the union covers multiple companies it'll be more resistant to all of this and generally more effective. The effects on the workers depends on the union's goals and determination. The biggest test is its first strike; how many employees actually go through with it and how long can they last. That depends a lot on the strike fund; even though we're a wealthy industry that should be able to make a strong strike fund, I'd expect a lot of programmers to be suspicious about it (then again I've heard more union talk this year than I have in the rest of my career combined, so maybe they're coming around). I expect the union will achieve all of its goals, as software engineers will drastically underestimate how much striking power they have. Judging by conversations I've had, I'd expect priorities to be: major commitments to privacy/security/ethics/maintainability, improved working conditions (less dense open offices, maybe an end to open offices), and maybe more vacation time. Increased pay seems to be a low priority among workers I've talked to.
acchow 8y ago
I wonder how unionized labor would interact with US visas. If you're on an H-1b and your union goes on strike.....do you have to leave the country?
- tosser0001 8y ago
  I think part of the union dues would go towards lobbying efforts aimed at restricting the number of H-1bs in the first place to help drive up wages.
- mikeryan 8y ago
  You are still employed while striking. I don't know why this would affect a visa. There are edge cases however where sometimes employees are not under contract during negotiations but the general provision for this is that the existing contract terms stay in place until a new contract is done.
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  As someone who is ready to join a tech union, I would advocate for legislation that allows for you to remain in the US on your H1B during a labor dispute.
- Swizec 8y ago
  Only if you get fired. Afaik you’re allowed to stay in the country as ling as you are employed by the employer on your visa regardless of whether you are working or not. Can you be fired for going on strike?
- tuxxy 8y ago
  A lot of union agreements have clauses that don't allow workers to strike. It's a bullshit practice and needs to end.
- mikestew 8y ago
  If you're on an H-1b and your union goes on strike You are still employed, you're just not getting paid. There are laws that state, in effect, that you cannot get fired for going on strike as part of a lawful strike. Well, if you aren't fired, then you must be employed, right?
SolaceQuantum 8y ago
I think we can look at the recent google walkout for that, as I belive the organizers specifically interacted with and took advisement of labor union organizers in order to have a successful walkout. Google was forced to respond to their workforce's demands, however how much real change will remain to be seen. So at the very least we know somewhat how management responds to organized tech labor for one example. The economics of such likely remains to be seen.
presscast 8y ago
I don't have any useful answers, but you could explore how tech workers have unionized in other countries and what the results have been. In France for example, tech workers are organized under so-called "Conventions Collectives" (= "collective agreement" in English).
epicureanideal 8y ago
I think it would depend on what form the unions take. There is a range from "you can't fire anybody even if they're terrible" to "professional organization that holds its own members to high standards of quality, but assuming they meet that standard, protects them 100%".
scarmig 8y ago
Tricky to say, as software engineering is a somewhat unique profession. Going by what happens in other industries, you'd reasonably expect a flattening of wages (both inter and intra firm) and an increase in the average wage. You'd also expect entry into the field to become harder, and exit from the field (both voluntary and involuntary) to become rarer. Fewer workers would be employed overall, though per capita productivity would increase; the overall effect would probably mean more money allocated to labor, less to capital holders, and higher costs for consumers. Work rules would increase, e.g. no one allowed to be on call for more than X hours a year, or a SWE not being allowed/required to take on job responsibilities outside the scope of the initial job offer except as facilitated by formal processes. Many of these effects will disproportionately benefit women and racial minorities (this is a rare case where "racial minorities" includes Asians of various sorts, as they're paid less than white people in the field, though that's in large part to the power employers have over visa holders).
- mattdeboard 8y ago
  Hopefully you circle back to your comments and see this some day. This was a great answer I've read several times as I consider organized labor in software development regularly. Thanks for giving me targets for research.
crdoconnor 8y ago
Intentional code obfuscation in combination with strike action would likely be the threat tactic of choice for developers. Employers will likely react I a counter productive manner to this threat - e.g. mandating 100% unit test coverage which would be achieved with cryptic tests that actually make the code even harder to work with. This could lead to a decline in overall software quality in America if the relationship between developers/ops and management really sours.
briandear 8y ago
The real impact is that offshoring would get even bigger. Those guilds only work if all of the best talent is a part of it. (i.e. the Directors Guild, SAG, WGA.) however top talent in software write their own ticket anyway so what would be their incentive? Convincing some startup to become signatory to a guild would be a non-starter for most. If they were to become signatory to a guild, are the founders going to be forced to pay themselves union scale for a side project that doesn’t yet have traction?
tosser0001 8y ago
You'd be paying union dues for one thing. I have to imagine there would be a lot of in-fighting between those looking to restrict the number of H1-Bs, etc., and those supporting them.

jtolmar 8y ago

Software engineers would have extreme (maybe unprecedented?) striking power. It's an industry where the workers are needed for both interviewing and training, so hiring scabs would be extremely hard. Management knows that already, so they'll do whatever they can to stop unionization. Retaliating against attempts to unionize are illegal, but internal anti-union propaganda campaigns are common in other industries, and I think you can expect not just what already exists, but better-funded campaigns and targeted to people more like you. Management would also try other methods to get around the union. More outsourcing, contracting entire projects out and requesting documentation or support contracts. These don't work well - they always cost more than expected, take longer than expected, and are a pain to maintain - but they do work some, so with unions raising wages that'd move the bar towards a little more outsourcing. I'd also expect it to take management a while to relearn that outsourcing doesn't work very well, since it's been a while. Many companies will be willing to pay more for outsourced labor than union labor, because strong unions are a long-term threat to the investor class. If the union covers multiple companies it'll be more resistant to all of this and generally more effective. The effects on the workers depends on the union's goals and determination. The biggest test is its first strike; how many employees actually go through with it and how long can they last. That depends a lot on the strike fund; even though we're a wealthy industry that should be able to make a strong strike fund, I'd expect a lot of programmers to be suspicious about it (then again I've heard more union talk this year than I have in the rest of my career combined, so maybe they're coming around). I expect the union will achieve all of its goals, as software engineers will drastically underestimate how much striking power they have. Judging by conversations I've had, I'd expect priorities to be: major commitments to privacy/security/ethics/maintainability, improved working conditions (less dense open offices, maybe an end to open offices), and maybe more vacation time. Increased pay seems to be a low priority among workers I've talked to.

acchow 8y ago

I wonder how unionized labor would interact with US visas. If you're on an H-1b and your union goes on strike.....do you have to leave the country?

tosser0001 8y ago
I think part of the union dues would go towards lobbying efforts aimed at restricting the number of H-1bs in the first place to help drive up wages.
mikeryan 8y ago
You are still employed while striking. I don't know why this would affect a visa. There are edge cases however where sometimes employees are not under contract during negotiations but the general provision for this is that the existing contract terms stay in place until a new contract is done.
toomuchtodo 8y ago
As someone who is ready to join a tech union, I would advocate for legislation that allows for you to remain in the US on your H1B during a labor dispute.
Swizec 8y ago
Only if you get fired. Afaik you’re allowed to stay in the country as ling as you are employed by the employer on your visa regardless of whether you are working or not. Can you be fired for going on strike?
tuxxy 8y ago
A lot of union agreements have clauses that don't allow workers to strike. It's a bullshit practice and needs to end.
mikestew 8y ago
If you're on an H-1b and your union goes on strike You are still employed, you're just not getting paid. There are laws that state, in effect, that you cannot get fired for going on strike as part of a lawful strike. Well, if you aren't fired, then you must be employed, right?

SolaceQuantum 8y ago

I think we can look at the recent google walkout for that, as I belive the organizers specifically interacted with and took advisement of labor union organizers in order to have a successful walkout. Google was forced to respond to their workforce's demands, however how much real change will remain to be seen. So at the very least we know somewhat how management responds to organized tech labor for one example. The economics of such likely remains to be seen.

presscast 8y ago

I don't have any useful answers, but you could explore how tech workers have unionized in other countries and what the results have been. In France for example, tech workers are organized under so-called "Conventions Collectives" (= "collective agreement" in English).

epicureanideal 8y ago

I think it would depend on what form the unions take. There is a range from "you can't fire anybody even if they're terrible" to "professional organization that holds its own members to high standards of quality, but assuming they meet that standard, protects them 100%".

scarmig 8y ago

Tricky to say, as software engineering is a somewhat unique profession. Going by what happens in other industries, you'd reasonably expect a flattening of wages (both inter and intra firm) and an increase in the average wage. You'd also expect entry into the field to become harder, and exit from the field (both voluntary and involuntary) to become rarer. Fewer workers would be employed overall, though per capita productivity would increase; the overall effect would probably mean more money allocated to labor, less to capital holders, and higher costs for consumers. Work rules would increase, e.g. no one allowed to be on call for more than X hours a year, or a SWE not being allowed/required to take on job responsibilities outside the scope of the initial job offer except as facilitated by formal processes. Many of these effects will disproportionately benefit women and racial minorities (this is a rare case where "racial minorities" includes Asians of various sorts, as they're paid less than white people in the field, though that's in large part to the power employers have over visa holders).

mattdeboard 8y ago
Hopefully you circle back to your comments and see this some day. This was a great answer I've read several times as I consider organized labor in software development regularly. Thanks for giving me targets for research.

crdoconnor 8y ago

Intentional code obfuscation in combination with strike action would likely be the threat tactic of choice for developers. Employers will likely react I a counter productive manner to this threat - e.g. mandating 100% unit test coverage which would be achieved with cryptic tests that actually make the code even harder to work with. This could lead to a decline in overall software quality in America if the relationship between developers/ops and management really sours.

briandear 8y ago

The real impact is that offshoring would get even bigger. Those guilds only work if all of the best talent is a part of it. (i.e. the Directors Guild, SAG, WGA.) however top talent in software write their own ticket anyway so what would be their incentive? Convincing some startup to become signatory to a guild would be a non-starter for most. If they were to become signatory to a guild, are the founders going to be forced to pay themselves union scale for a side project that doesn’t yet have traction?

tosser0001 8y ago

You'd be paying union dues for one thing. I have to imagine there would be a lot of in-fighting between those looking to restrict the number of H1-Bs, etc., and those supporting them.