5 ms·

I've often thought there should be a union in tech, similar to the way the directors guild and screen actors guild operate. Not to set maximums on compensation,

I've often thought there should be a union in tech, similar to the way the directors guild and screen actors guild operate. Not to set maximums on compensation, but to set humane minimums and provide continuity and health insurance in a pooled way, perhaps.

crdoconnor 8y ago
Also to lobby (e.g. in favour of trust busting, copyright/IP reform) and to provide a legal heavyweight that can take on systemic abuse like the wage fixing cartel from a few years ago.
riffic 8y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13870540 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13870540 for some pointers
Kalium 8y ago
Some of those guilds set minimums in part to provide barriers to entry. They're not solely acting in the interests of compassion and kindness. We do nobody any favors by pretending there's no economic logic at work.
- mikestew 8y ago
  Some of those guilds set minimums in part to provide barriers to entry. What you call a "barrier to entry", others might call "certification of some base level of quality". Yeah, if you sling spaghetti Javascript, we're not letting you in, or summat. I'm not saying it always does, or even will, work out that way, but it is one option.
  - Kalium 8y ago
    To the extent that guilds are active in ensuring a base level of quality, you're absolutely correct! Certainly I am not interested in writing - or hiring people who write - truly terrible code. It's just perhaps possible that not every currently existing and active guild that enforces minimum rates is also ensuring a minimum level of quality. This suggests that, in some times and some places, there can be a gap between what's possible and what's realized. You're completely right. Guilds can ensure quality!
  - majewsky 8y ago
    I would really like to have something like that, but we currently lack a baseline curriculum that defines this "base level of quality". Stuff that won't change over the course of a programmer's career. Most conventional wisdoms in our craft are little more than fads at this point. Just look at how many colleges teach object-oriented programming with Java, while many professionals declare OOP dead, a thing of the past, only to be found in legacy monstrosities.
    - Kalium 8y ago
      As an additional wrinkle, any baseline curriculum that involves any reasonable amount of computing theory will put a lot of self-taught professional software engineers on the outside. That seems like it might be a hurdle to getting buy-in.
SolaceQuantum 8y ago
I would also like such a guild to remove people from the guild for intentionally performing law breaking(or unethical) behavior- such so that individual workers can say "I can't do that, my guild will oust me" and will take the heat off themselves. I'm not sure if actor/director guilds do this, though, I've only seen it in licensing orgs.
- walshemj 8y ago
  There is a problem with that is how do you define what is "law breaking" / "unethical" - its not a Unions job to be judge an jury here also it would make it hard to recruit widely. And can we not use the term guild in TU history has some very negative connotations.
  - Kalium 8y ago
    > And can we not use the term guild in TU history has some very negative connotations. Some actively call themselves guilds today - Writers Guild, Screen Actors Guild, Directors Guild of America, etc. Should we not use their word of choice?
    - walshemj 8y ago
      Its problematic for a number of reasons the history of trade unions in the USA and also some of the historical functions of "guilds" run counter to the aims of modern trade unions. 19th century trade union cosplay isn't going to organise professionals in the 21st century or anyone else for that matter - I am sure even Keith Flett would agree with me.
tuxxy 8y ago
Interesting idea to incentivize startups to invite the union in. I wouldn't be against joining a union (and paying reasonable dues) if it means that I also have healthcare. Does that mean if I decide to start a venture, my venture will have healthcare from day 0? If so, that's a pretty neat idea. EDIT: I just also thought that the interests of a union of startup developers and union of enterprise/large-co developers are quite different. Does this mean there are two different unions?
- jaggederest 8y ago
  In the case of DGA/SGA, it means that you get your healthcare from the union, not your employer. So as long as you're a union member in good standing (and the dues are substantial, just to be clear), you have healthcare coverage through them.
  - tuxxy 8y ago
    Well, healthcare costs are substantial. It's probably preferable that we offer employers the ability to either a) completely cover dues, or b) pay for the healthcare costs. My main gripe with Unions are the huge costs and the major lack of benefits people receive. I'd also prefer to join a Union that isn't hugely centralized and falls to the ills of bureaucracy.
pjmlp 8y ago
There are unions in tech in some European countries, for example IG Metal in Germany. I really appreciate the benefits I could enjoy thanks to their work. Additionally in countries where being an Informatics Engineer is a proper certified title, the college also helps in some negotiations.
ummonk 8y ago
Yeah, guilds for other creative industries seem like a better model for any tech unionization.
walshemj 8y ago
Note that one of the UK equivalent of ISATSE merged with the big Uk Tech / Scientific unions as there is a lot of commonality.
darawk 8y ago
Do you think there are software engineers making wages you would consider inhumane?
- jaggederest 8y ago
  It's less about wages and more about work conditions. But I do know people on short contracts making less than I would consider humane wages. Certainly not in the SF bay area, but I'm not located there.
- falcolas 8y ago
  Game Developers. Around $30-40k per year to live and work for 80 to 100 hours a week in locations where the cost of living is higher than average. Toss in a lack of job security (regular layoffs as projects complete and a ready supply of raw recruits) and it fits my definition of inhumane.
barnesto 8y ago
yep and then watch the continued increases in H2B visas or the outright offshoring to any number of Asian nations

crdoconnor 8y ago

Also to lobby (e.g. in favour of trust busting, copyright/IP reform) and to provide a legal heavyweight that can take on systemic abuse like the wage fixing cartel from a few years ago.

riffic 8y ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13870540 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13870540 for some pointers

Kalium 8y ago

Some of those guilds set minimums in part to provide barriers to entry. They're not solely acting in the interests of compassion and kindness. We do nobody any favors by pretending there's no economic logic at work.

mikestew 8y ago
Some of those guilds set minimums in part to provide barriers to entry. What you call a "barrier to entry", others might call "certification of some base level of quality". Yeah, if you sling spaghetti Javascript, we're not letting you in, or summat. I'm not saying it always does, or even will, work out that way, but it is one option.
- Kalium 8y ago
  To the extent that guilds are active in ensuring a base level of quality, you're absolutely correct! Certainly I am not interested in writing - or hiring people who write - truly terrible code. It's just perhaps possible that not every currently existing and active guild that enforces minimum rates is also ensuring a minimum level of quality. This suggests that, in some times and some places, there can be a gap between what's possible and what's realized. You're completely right. Guilds can ensure quality!
- majewsky 8y ago
  I would really like to have something like that, but we currently lack a baseline curriculum that defines this "base level of quality". Stuff that won't change over the course of a programmer's career. Most conventional wisdoms in our craft are little more than fads at this point. Just look at how many colleges teach object-oriented programming with Java, while many professionals declare OOP dead, a thing of the past, only to be found in legacy monstrosities.
  - Kalium 8y ago
    As an additional wrinkle, any baseline curriculum that involves any reasonable amount of computing theory will put a lot of self-taught professional software engineers on the outside. That seems like it might be a hurdle to getting buy-in.

SolaceQuantum 8y ago

I would also like such a guild to remove people from the guild for intentionally performing law breaking(or unethical) behavior- such so that individual workers can say "I can't do that, my guild will oust me" and will take the heat off themselves. I'm not sure if actor/director guilds do this, though, I've only seen it in licensing orgs.

walshemj 8y ago
There is a problem with that is how do you define what is "law breaking" / "unethical" - its not a Unions job to be judge an jury here also it would make it hard to recruit widely. And can we not use the term guild in TU history has some very negative connotations.
- Kalium 8y ago
  > And can we not use the term guild in TU history has some very negative connotations. Some actively call themselves guilds today - Writers Guild, Screen Actors Guild, Directors Guild of America, etc. Should we not use their word of choice?
  - walshemj 8y ago
    Its problematic for a number of reasons the history of trade unions in the USA and also some of the historical functions of "guilds" run counter to the aims of modern trade unions. 19th century trade union cosplay isn't going to organise professionals in the 21st century or anyone else for that matter - I am sure even Keith Flett would agree with me.

tuxxy 8y ago

Interesting idea to incentivize startups to invite the union in. I wouldn't be against joining a union (and paying reasonable dues) if it means that I also have healthcare. Does that mean if I decide to start a venture, my venture will have healthcare from day 0? If so, that's a pretty neat idea. EDIT: I just also thought that the interests of a union of startup developers and union of enterprise/large-co developers are quite different. Does this mean there are two different unions?

jaggederest 8y ago
In the case of DGA/SGA, it means that you get your healthcare from the union, not your employer. So as long as you're a union member in good standing (and the dues are substantial, just to be clear), you have healthcare coverage through them.
- tuxxy 8y ago
  Well, healthcare costs are substantial. It's probably preferable that we offer employers the ability to either a) completely cover dues, or b) pay for the healthcare costs. My main gripe with Unions are the huge costs and the major lack of benefits people receive. I'd also prefer to join a Union that isn't hugely centralized and falls to the ills of bureaucracy.

pjmlp 8y ago

There are unions in tech in some European countries, for example IG Metal in Germany. I really appreciate the benefits I could enjoy thanks to their work. Additionally in countries where being an Informatics Engineer is a proper certified title, the college also helps in some negotiations.

ummonk 8y ago

Yeah, guilds for other creative industries seem like a better model for any tech unionization.

walshemj 8y ago

Note that one of the UK equivalent of ISATSE merged with the big Uk Tech / Scientific unions as there is a lot of commonality.

darawk 8y ago

Do you think there are software engineers making wages you would consider inhumane?

jaggederest 8y ago
It's less about wages and more about work conditions. But I do know people on short contracts making less than I would consider humane wages. Certainly not in the SF bay area, but I'm not located there.
falcolas 8y ago
Game Developers. Around $30-40k per year to live and work for 80 to 100 hours a week in locations where the cost of living is higher than average. Toss in a lack of job security (regular layoffs as projects complete and a ready supply of raw recruits) and it fits my definition of inhumane.

barnesto 8y ago

yep and then watch the continued increases in H2B visas or the outright offshoring to any number of Asian nations