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And this is despite all the options of electric cars on the market failing to live up to the average Norwegian's criteria. Many Norwegians are still waiting fo

by dagss 8y ago

And this is despite all the options of electric cars on the market failing to live up to the average Norwegian's criteria. Many Norwegians are still waiting for a "real" electric car to become available. Where a real car is defined by: - Tesla range - 450 liter+ luggage room - Roof rack/box - Tow bar In particular with Tesla you get EITHER the tow bar (model X) OR the roof box (Model S). So even IF you splurge on a luxury priced car, it feels like compromising vs getting a gasoline car. (Also Tesla is "very large", it does not fit comfortably in parking spaces; 180 cm wide cars are really a lot more convenient than 200 cm around here). The moment anyone is ready to just deliver something like an electric Volkswagen Passat station wagon they will sell as many as they want in Norway. But, every single announcement fails to meet these criteria. It is a standard that lots and lots of gasoline cars fullfill, but currently no EVs. (Audi e-Tron is first, but still has a too large footprint, and also too expensive for most).

xte 8y ago
Electrical (battery based) car's are more a marketing thing that a real tech change. They simply can't for now substitute fossil-fuel car's. Battery life is still a problem, most of the people have yet do discover due to the young age of ALL electric car's in actual market, inability to offer enough electricity to recharge them at scale is another problem most people still have to discover simply because we actually have very small percentage of EV around. And that's only to cite most important problems. Of course I expect may downvote, without comment so I expect this comment fade quickly but since today's prize of EVs people that can actually buy them is supposed to been able to compute enough to choose and REAL EV sell confirm that. Despite all the marketing.
- cevn 8y ago
  What are you even talking about? My EV's battery is 90% of the size as my old Toyota's. I drive it every day. I charge it at home. I don't go to gas stations any more. IMO anyone buying a fossil fuel car at this point is the one being duped by marketing. (excluding circumstances such as nowhere to charge).
  - TheBeardKing 8y ago
    Genuinely curious and prioritize frugality, how will I save money buying any EV over a 2-3 yeard old Civic or Corolla? Gas is <$2 gallon here.
    - jsendros 8y ago
      Owner of both a gas and electric vehicle here (Ford + Tesla). Gas is still way cheaper. Electric (specifically Tesla) is way more convenient. All EVs will soon be more convenient as fast charging options become more available for all EVs. I bet as EVs get cheaper, so does gasoline because of dropping demand. I doubt EVs will beat gas on long-term-ownership-cost within the next 5 years. *EDIT: Should've noted I also live in the northeastern US which is probably relevant for both price and convenience factors.
    - nikivi 8y ago
      I would imagine EV will hold value better the more into the future we get vs gasoline.
  - btgeekboy 8y ago
    You must admit though, circumstances such as nowhere to charge and overall cost are a pretty core problem. Electric cars are great, except when they’re not.
  - pmjordan 8y ago
    IMO anyone buying a fossil fuel car at this point is the one being duped by marketing. I'm guessing this is deliberate hyperbole, because it's simply not true. The OP very much has a point: aside from Tesla X, the interior space (both rear bench seating - important for families - and boot (trunk)) in current EVs is nowhere near many combustion engine cars. (We just bought a VW Touran; we really wanted an EV, but fitting baby seat and pram plus shopping or luggage is just not possible unless you spend ~€100k on a Tesla; aside from the price, the OP's point about the footprint/width of the car is a major obstacle in much of Europe. The range question is only really resolved on the very latest models (Renault Zoe, Hyundai Kona EV, Jaguar i-Pace) and the Teslas as well. Our absolute minimum was 200km mixed driving in all seasons and that already narrows you down to a very small pool of models. Our VW Touran has a range of 800km. (500km would be more than enough for 99.9% of our trips though.)
- Brakenshire 8y ago
  You’ll be downvoted because you are wrong. Because battery life isn’t an issue with thermally managed batteries, Teslas are doing well over 100,000 miles and on average retaining 80%-90% of battery life. And because electric cars will provide a massive pool for demand shifting, barring four hours of peak, electric cars can be charged at any time of day, that means with price structures you can create almost any demand curve you want.
  - xte 8y ago
    How old, in years, your EV is? I bet you do not know anyone with a moderately used EV with more than five years. If I'm right wait a bit before try so sure conclusion. I know few people with few not-so-new EVs (Renault ZE series most of them) and hear their practical experience outside marketing. No one of them is willing to buy an EV again.
    - outworlder 8y ago
      Maybe it is a problem with Renault then. Go hang out in Leaf forums instead (and the Nissan Leaf doesn't even have a thermally managed battery). I have one. I haven't lost a SINGLE capacity bar after 3 years (first year saw really heavy usage with multiple quick charges a week). Unless it decides to self-destruct after 5 years, I would expect it to last a while. Yes, they lose maximum capacity over time. Very slowly. They still work. This is not a phone or laptop.
      - xte 8y ago
        No, thanks, I do not ask on some vendor's forum. I prefer ask people I can trust as sources, not eventually disguised marketing guys or bot. As I write before I say most of them are on Renault, But one is on a Tesla. This last one essentially stop using it because it's too large for him in city and it can't use it because of reduced range to go to it's country house or on mountains to ski without recharge... The problem, beside battery life, Renault ZE have and nobody like to recall it in marketing is 85 euro/month fee for battery (mandatory) rental. BTW battery tech is the very same of phones, laptop, cordless drill etc, any other devices that use lithium ion battery. Only very few vendors offer other option that last even less than Li-Ion battery.
- jillesvangurp 8y ago
  Happy to counter all of that. First, it's fossil fuel that has a marketing issue. First of all, you have to pretend the second hand value of your car is not going to rapidly tank as EVs take over. If you are buying Diesel, I hope you factor in that it will be a hard sell in a few years and you might have to write off a lot more than you bargained for when you sell at a much lower price than you hoped. IMHO Diesel is the canary in the coal mine here; the same will happen to petrol cars in a few years. This will rapidly kill the market for new ICE vehicles as there is no point in buying them if you can't pass them on at a reasonable price a few years later. Secondly, fossil fuel cars benefit from all sorts of government protection including tax benefits for big oil, tax funded expensive wars in the middle east (at trillions $ cost), silly subsidies for things like bio diesel, etc. And that's before you factor in the damage burning fuel does. Which people seem to be allowed to get away with for absolutely free. If you stop all that overnight, ICE based cars would become a really hard sell because fuel prices would rise, and manufacturers would be retrofitting cars with expensive fixes to make them stop being a health and safety risk in fear of action law suits. Think tobacco industry here. Why not? Diesel/petrol, fumes kill people, by the millions with long term health affects and measurable life time decreases. There's no good reason for any of this to continue to be the case as EVs become widely available commodity products available at competitive prices. This is more than a little marketing challenge as governments world wide seem to be cracking down on this with taxes, vehicle restrictions, etc. And that's of course aside from the whole co2 business. I know, not a popular topic but it's having real effects on fuel prices and vehicle taxes in most civilized places at this point. I don't see that ending any time soon; rather the opposite. Norway is leading here, but plenty more countries are following. This will kill demand and increase cost for ICE based vehicles. That's why GM and Ford shut down a lot of their ICE business last year and why the likes of VW are making tens of billions of investments in production capacity for EVs over the next few years. In fact, most major manufacturers are effectively divesting their ICE business for a few years now. A few percent now, doubling every 18 months or so creates a nice exponential growth curve for EVs. Meanwhile, everything else is dealing with shrinking markets, declining ASPs, increasing taxes, government pressure, etc. There's very little future in ICE based vehicles, judging from how major manufacturers are behaving in the last year. Charging infrastructure is just fine. There's plenty of it already and more is on the way. Actually, most of it is under-utilised most of the time (<10%). So, there's plenty of room for growth short term and plenty more long term as there are continued investments in charging infrastructure happening everywhere. Sure, in the utterly unrealistic scenario that everyone would switch overnight to EVs this would indeed be a minor challenge for grid providers. But growth as per even the most optimistic scenarios, provides plenty of room for continued investments in infrastructure, clean energy, etc. You say problem, I say business opportunity. Most healthy businesses would consider predicted growth spread over multiple years/decades to be fantastic news. Of course it kind of sucks if all you know is burning coal/gas and all the cool new hip kids are undercutting your prices with solar/wind. Battery life is not really a problem for the vast majority of commuters. Even with the unimpressive/limited range of already obsolete first generation vehicles like the Nissan Leaf or Chevy Bolt. Long distance travel indeed requires annoyingly long charging breaks; but on the other hand taking a break after 200-300 miles is not the end of the world. And if you drive those kind of distances daily, your life sucks much more than that of most drivers stuck in perpetual traffic jams. Luckily, faster charging high end vehicles with longer ranges are becoming available as well. And that's before you factor in battery R&D over the next few decades that will decimate cost and double/triple capacities. But most people rarely need to rely on public charging points since their car will be fully charged when they unplug it at home in the morning. And coming back to the charging infrastructure, most people see a measurable but not spectacular increase in their electricity use while charging almost exclusively at home. You have to drive a lot to double your usage. So if that's the same for most people, we're talking probably much less than 2 x increase in total electricity demand. And that's spread out over the next 10-20 years. Also, charging happens mostly off peak at night. And you can do some interesting things such as use charged cars to provide power back to the grid during peak hours. In short, this is not an issue now and unlikely to become one. Finally, battery life span seems awesome in first generation vehicles. Mostly their batteries get reused rather than recycled after their vehicles are written off. Tesla guarantees 100K+ miles for their drivetrains + batteries at or above 70% capacity: reason: they know full well, they can do at least double that. I think Elon Musk was actually boasting numbers closer to 500K miles recently. Most ICE cars would go to many expensive maintenance cycles every few tens of thousands of miles.
winter_blue 8y ago
> 180 cm wide cars are really a lot more convenient than 195 cm I’ll add that I have a Prius Prime that I’m very happy with, and it’s only 175 cm wide. It’s an amazing and extremely nifty car. Compact car fans are sure to love it. Practically everything about it is praiseworthy (except for the Entune software).
- xte 8y ago
  IMO not much good for a snowy county since it's 2WD only...
  - winter_blue 8y ago
    There’s a new Prius e-AWD [1] that should be good for driving in snowy conditions. That being said, I live in New York, and I’ve never had a problem here. The government does a pretty good job of salting the roads, and cleaning up excess snow, so I’ve practically never had to drive on snow, even during snowy times. [1] See: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a24843141/2019-toyota-prius-awd-hybrid-photos-info/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a24843141/2019-toyota-priu...
    - xte 8y ago
      Thanks for the link, I do not know it before :-) On de-icing: you can have clean road if they are heavy used together with a not so cold climate since car's itself contribute a bit on cleanup phase but you practically can't on any less frequented road, especially outside cities. Salt and gravel help avoiding ice with a "liquid top" that's super slippery but can't really melt snow on snowy days or cold days...
  - thedaemon 8y ago
    Snow tires matter much more than it being 2wd. AWD and 4WD are worthless in the ice just like 2wd.
    - xte 8y ago
      So they are winter tires, only spiked tires works (really) well on ice, unfortunately you can't use them on most country without majority of the roads iced for long periods... Personally living, and have lived, in snowy area while I prize winter tire on snow I also prize 4WD/AWD, without them in many cases I'll have had to beg for a tow, no matter how good winter tire I can ever mount. In some condition, like little snow, you only have slippery roads due to the moisture of salt/snow/dirt on the road and 4wheel help reaming on trajectory but you may still drive on 2WD at least if you are a good enough driver, on heavier snow 4wheels means have enough traction to advance and enough grip to still have traction when some wheel slip.
toomuchtodo 8y ago
There are aftermarket hidden hitches for the Model S. I routinely pull a trailer with my S, sometimes up to the 2500lb hitch rating. It has served me better than my pickup truck I previously owned, and it only takes a moment to drop the trailer before Supercharging at stations where I can’t pull thru.
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  >sometimes up to the 2500lb hitch rating That's an impressively terrible rating for something with the curb weight of a 90s 1/2 ton pickup. I suspect the vehicle could comfortably handle far more considering how much better the power and brakes are than a 90s pickup but they don't want to be replacing certain parts under warranty (my guess would be CVs since the S has plenty of torque and traction to hurt them with).
  - toomuchtodo 8y ago
    In almost a decade of owning a 1/2 ton pickup, only twice did I pull a load over that rating. No need to optimize for rare workloads. If I need to haul more than 2500 lbs, I’m renting a truck for the job. The underlying issue is a lot of pickups are road queens and entirely unnecessary for their daily workloads, existing as status symbols first and a mode of transportation second.
    - gregimba 8y ago
      I regularly nearly exceed the load capacity of a 1/2 pickup. Some of them are road queens but some people actually use a truck for its intended purpose.
      - toomuchtodo 8y ago
        In which case a pickup truck is a superior solution over current EVs.
    - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
      Meh. Most people only ever use the front row of seating in their vehicle the overwhelming majority of the time. Pickups are just vehicles where the extra space is optimized for non-human cargo. The richer you are the more likely you are to buy enough vehicle for the most extreme case. If we all bought what we needed for the average case there would be a lot more subcompacts sold.
messo 8y ago
VW is working hard to deliver mass produced Passat-like EVs in 2020. They will be priced the same as their current fossil cars, which gives the new electric lineup a huge advantage in Norway due to high taxes on fossil cars. More info here: http://www.fullychargedshow.co.uk/electric-cars/2018/12/17/vw-id-test-car-exclusive-drive http://www.fullychargedshow.co.uk/electric-cars/2018/12/17/v...
- janvidar 8y ago
  The ID, is closer to a Golf in size, which is significantly smaller than a Passat.
sillypuddy 8y ago
Why does the average Norwegian need a roof rack and a tow bar?
- TomasEkeli 8y ago
  Skis and big gardens.
- unchocked 8y ago
  Because Norway is an amazing wilderness and Norwegians use it.
- dagss 8y ago
  Roof rack: Skis. (And the Model X ski box behind car on tow bar solution look unwieldy and ridiculous, but there are still lots of them around here, as the only EV compromise that sort of ticks all the boxes.) And kayaks too. Tow bar: Not sure what others do without them. Furniture shops lend out trailers for free so that you can take your new sofa with you back home. I recently transported the materials for building my new front deck on a trailer. I tend to rent a trailer for taking things to the landfill/recycling facilities especially when renovating my home (and Norwegians do a lot of home renovation..). When helping young people move a trailer is all it takes. Etc etc. I used a tow bar at least five times a year for misc errands. (Now I have a Model S and have to leech on neighbors) I am not sure why this is different and how e.g. US or German or French culture would be digferent.. I guess the alternative is paying others for delivery/disposal, doing less handiwork oneself, and (in the case of US) buying pickup trucks that in no way will fit on Norwegian roads and parking lots.
  - henrikschroder 8y ago
    Trailers are pretty much unheard of in the US. You either have or borrow a pickup truck instead, because everyone has one or knows someone that has one. As a result, almost no cars in the US has a tow bar. Except pickup trucks. That don't really need them. Because you haul stuff directly in the truck.
    - 8y ago
csmac3144 8y ago
Norway is one of the world's largest per capita producers of greenhouse gases. Norway adds 1.6 million barrels of oil per day to the world's market. Buying EVs might make people feel virtuous, but it makes no real difference compared to the enormous fossil fuel output.
- A2017U1 8y ago
  Since when do people count exports as emissions? No one is forcing countries to buy that oil and refusing to sell it is inconsequential. Also their grid is 100% renewable and per capita they are around half of US emissions and on par with most of Europe.
  - freehunter 8y ago
    It's not that much different than blaming the sellers of military equipment for the atrocities committed by that military equipment. If County A sells bombs to County B knowing that Country B will use them to commit genocide in Country C, County A can't be entirely off the hook for that genocide. Sure if Country A didn't sell then another country would, and sure no one forced Country B to buy those weapons, but Country A still knew what the outcome was going to be when they made the sale. And Country A decided that the money was worth the ethical consequences. If you produce and sell oil, even if you don't use the oil yourself, you know full well what that oil will be used for.
    - janvidar 8y ago
      Genocide?
      - freehunter 8y ago
        If one single word from an overly-obvious analogy is your main take-away from what I wrote, I would encourage you to just move on. It's probably not worth your time.
    - akiselev 8y ago
cmrdporcupine 8y ago
Third party roof rack and tow options are totally possible for pretty much most of the mainline EVs. I'm putting a roof rack on my Volt for a ski trip in two weeks. Towing hitch is discouraged by manufacturer, but many many people have done it. But yes, luggage is a concern. Though my Volt mostly fits my needs given we have a second, ICE, hauling vehicle. There will be more options soon. I hope.
- dagss 8y ago
  Cannot legally add a tow hitch in Norway though.
- leoh 8y ago
  You can't put a roof rack on a Model X because of the wing doors.
- mikepurvis 8y ago
  Not many options for Model X racks; kind of unsurprising given the door configuration. Though this nutter has his skis on there with a suction cup rack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sUjHUTpZdA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sUjHUTpZdA
ip26 8y ago
Is the range still a big deal? Norway is not as big as the USA, and you can nearly get from Oslo to Bergen in a Chevy Bolt. (Stockholm, I'll admit, is too far for one charge)
- janvidar 8y ago
  Oslo-Bergen is ~460km crossing mountains. Oslo-Stockholm is ~530km mostly flat. You probably need to charge either way.

by dagss 8y ago

xte 8y ago

Electrical (battery based) car's are more a marketing thing that a real tech change. They simply can't for now substitute fossil-fuel car's. Battery life is still a problem, most of the people have yet do discover due to the young age of ALL electric car's in actual market, inability to offer enough electricity to recharge them at scale is another problem most people still have to discover simply because we actually have very small percentage of EV around. And that's only to cite most important problems. Of course I expect may downvote, without comment so I expect this comment fade quickly but since today's prize of EVs people that can actually buy them is supposed to been able to compute enough to choose and REAL EV sell confirm that. Despite all the marketing.

cevn 8y ago
What are you even talking about? My EV's battery is 90% of the size as my old Toyota's. I drive it every day. I charge it at home. I don't go to gas stations any more. IMO anyone buying a fossil fuel car at this point is the one being duped by marketing. (excluding circumstances such as nowhere to charge).
- TheBeardKing 8y ago
  Genuinely curious and prioritize frugality, how will I save money buying any EV over a 2-3 yeard old Civic or Corolla? Gas is <$2 gallon here.
  - jsendros 8y ago
    Owner of both a gas and electric vehicle here (Ford + Tesla). Gas is still way cheaper. Electric (specifically Tesla) is way more convenient. All EVs will soon be more convenient as fast charging options become more available for all EVs. I bet as EVs get cheaper, so does gasoline because of dropping demand. I doubt EVs will beat gas on long-term-ownership-cost within the next 5 years. *EDIT: Should've noted I also live in the northeastern US which is probably relevant for both price and convenience factors.
  - nikivi 8y ago
    I would imagine EV will hold value better the more into the future we get vs gasoline.
- btgeekboy 8y ago
  You must admit though, circumstances such as nowhere to charge and overall cost are a pretty core problem. Electric cars are great, except when they’re not.
- pmjordan 8y ago
  IMO anyone buying a fossil fuel car at this point is the one being duped by marketing. I'm guessing this is deliberate hyperbole, because it's simply not true. The OP very much has a point: aside from Tesla X, the interior space (both rear bench seating - important for families - and boot (trunk)) in current EVs is nowhere near many combustion engine cars. (We just bought a VW Touran; we really wanted an EV, but fitting baby seat and pram plus shopping or luggage is just not possible unless you spend ~€100k on a Tesla; aside from the price, the OP's point about the footprint/width of the car is a major obstacle in much of Europe. The range question is only really resolved on the very latest models (Renault Zoe, Hyundai Kona EV, Jaguar i-Pace) and the Teslas as well. Our absolute minimum was 200km mixed driving in all seasons and that already narrows you down to a very small pool of models. Our VW Touran has a range of 800km. (500km would be more than enough for 99.9% of our trips though.)
Brakenshire 8y ago
You’ll be downvoted because you are wrong. Because battery life isn’t an issue with thermally managed batteries, Teslas are doing well over 100,000 miles and on average retaining 80%-90% of battery life. And because electric cars will provide a massive pool for demand shifting, barring four hours of peak, electric cars can be charged at any time of day, that means with price structures you can create almost any demand curve you want.
- xte 8y ago
  How old, in years, your EV is? I bet you do not know anyone with a moderately used EV with more than five years. If I'm right wait a bit before try so sure conclusion. I know few people with few not-so-new EVs (Renault ZE series most of them) and hear their practical experience outside marketing. No one of them is willing to buy an EV again.
  - outworlder 8y ago
    Maybe it is a problem with Renault then. Go hang out in Leaf forums instead (and the Nissan Leaf doesn't even have a thermally managed battery). I have one. I haven't lost a SINGLE capacity bar after 3 years (first year saw really heavy usage with multiple quick charges a week). Unless it decides to self-destruct after 5 years, I would expect it to last a while. Yes, they lose maximum capacity over time. Very slowly. They still work. This is not a phone or laptop.
    - xte 8y ago
      No, thanks, I do not ask on some vendor's forum. I prefer ask people I can trust as sources, not eventually disguised marketing guys or bot. As I write before I say most of them are on Renault, But one is on a Tesla. This last one essentially stop using it because it's too large for him in city and it can't use it because of reduced range to go to it's country house or on mountains to ski without recharge... The problem, beside battery life, Renault ZE have and nobody like to recall it in marketing is 85 euro/month fee for battery (mandatory) rental. BTW battery tech is the very same of phones, laptop, cordless drill etc, any other devices that use lithium ion battery. Only very few vendors offer other option that last even less than Li-Ion battery.
jillesvangurp 8y ago
Happy to counter all of that. First, it's fossil fuel that has a marketing issue. First of all, you have to pretend the second hand value of your car is not going to rapidly tank as EVs take over. If you are buying Diesel, I hope you factor in that it will be a hard sell in a few years and you might have to write off a lot more than you bargained for when you sell at a much lower price than you hoped. IMHO Diesel is the canary in the coal mine here; the same will happen to petrol cars in a few years. This will rapidly kill the market for new ICE vehicles as there is no point in buying them if you can't pass them on at a reasonable price a few years later. Secondly, fossil fuel cars benefit from all sorts of government protection including tax benefits for big oil, tax funded expensive wars in the middle east (at trillions $ cost), silly subsidies for things like bio diesel, etc. And that's before you factor in the damage burning fuel does. Which people seem to be allowed to get away with for absolutely free. If you stop all that overnight, ICE based cars would become a really hard sell because fuel prices would rise, and manufacturers would be retrofitting cars with expensive fixes to make them stop being a health and safety risk in fear of action law suits. Think tobacco industry here. Why not? Diesel/petrol, fumes kill people, by the millions with long term health affects and measurable life time decreases. There's no good reason for any of this to continue to be the case as EVs become widely available commodity products available at competitive prices. This is more than a little marketing challenge as governments world wide seem to be cracking down on this with taxes, vehicle restrictions, etc. And that's of course aside from the whole co2 business. I know, not a popular topic but it's having real effects on fuel prices and vehicle taxes in most civilized places at this point. I don't see that ending any time soon; rather the opposite. Norway is leading here, but plenty more countries are following. This will kill demand and increase cost for ICE based vehicles. That's why GM and Ford shut down a lot of their ICE business last year and why the likes of VW are making tens of billions of investments in production capacity for EVs over the next few years. In fact, most major manufacturers are effectively divesting their ICE business for a few years now. A few percent now, doubling every 18 months or so creates a nice exponential growth curve for EVs. Meanwhile, everything else is dealing with shrinking markets, declining ASPs, increasing taxes, government pressure, etc. There's very little future in ICE based vehicles, judging from how major manufacturers are behaving in the last year. Charging infrastructure is just fine. There's plenty of it already and more is on the way. Actually, most of it is under-utilised most of the time (<10%). So, there's plenty of room for growth short term and plenty more long term as there are continued investments in charging infrastructure happening everywhere. Sure, in the utterly unrealistic scenario that everyone would switch overnight to EVs this would indeed be a minor challenge for grid providers. But growth as per even the most optimistic scenarios, provides plenty of room for continued investments in infrastructure, clean energy, etc. You say problem, I say business opportunity. Most healthy businesses would consider predicted growth spread over multiple years/decades to be fantastic news. Of course it kind of sucks if all you know is burning coal/gas and all the cool new hip kids are undercutting your prices with solar/wind. Battery life is not really a problem for the vast majority of commuters. Even with the unimpressive/limited range of already obsolete first generation vehicles like the Nissan Leaf or Chevy Bolt. Long distance travel indeed requires annoyingly long charging breaks; but on the other hand taking a break after 200-300 miles is not the end of the world. And if you drive those kind of distances daily, your life sucks much more than that of most drivers stuck in perpetual traffic jams. Luckily, faster charging high end vehicles with longer ranges are becoming available as well. And that's before you factor in battery R&D over the next few decades that will decimate cost and double/triple capacities. But most people rarely need to rely on public charging points since their car will be fully charged when they unplug it at home in the morning. And coming back to the charging infrastructure, most people see a measurable but not spectacular increase in their electricity use while charging almost exclusively at home. You have to drive a lot to double your usage. So if that's the same for most people, we're talking probably much less than 2 x increase in total electricity demand. And that's spread out over the next 10-20 years. Also, charging happens mostly off peak at night. And you can do some interesting things such as use charged cars to provide power back to the grid during peak hours. In short, this is not an issue now and unlikely to become one. Finally, battery life span seems awesome in first generation vehicles. Mostly their batteries get reused rather than recycled after their vehicles are written off. Tesla guarantees 100K+ miles for their drivetrains + batteries at or above 70% capacity: reason: they know full well, they can do at least double that. I think Elon Musk was actually boasting numbers closer to 500K miles recently. Most ICE cars would go to many expensive maintenance cycles every few tens of thousands of miles.

winter_blue 8y ago

> 180 cm wide cars are really a lot more convenient than 195 cm I’ll add that I have a Prius Prime that I’m very happy with, and it’s only 175 cm wide. It’s an amazing and extremely nifty car. Compact car fans are sure to love it. Practically everything about it is praiseworthy (except for the Entune software).

xte 8y ago
IMO not much good for a snowy county since it's 2WD only...
- winter_blue 8y ago
  There’s a new Prius e-AWD [1] that should be good for driving in snowy conditions. That being said, I live in New York, and I’ve never had a problem here. The government does a pretty good job of salting the roads, and cleaning up excess snow, so I’ve practically never had to drive on snow, even during snowy times. [1] See: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a24843141/2019-toyota-prius-awd-hybrid-photos-info/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a24843141/2019-toyota-priu...
  - xte 8y ago
    Thanks for the link, I do not know it before :-) On de-icing: you can have clean road if they are heavy used together with a not so cold climate since car's itself contribute a bit on cleanup phase but you practically can't on any less frequented road, especially outside cities. Salt and gravel help avoiding ice with a "liquid top" that's super slippery but can't really melt snow on snowy days or cold days...
- thedaemon 8y ago
  Snow tires matter much more than it being 2wd. AWD and 4WD are worthless in the ice just like 2wd.
  - xte 8y ago
    So they are winter tires, only spiked tires works (really) well on ice, unfortunately you can't use them on most country without majority of the roads iced for long periods... Personally living, and have lived, in snowy area while I prize winter tire on snow I also prize 4WD/AWD, without them in many cases I'll have had to beg for a tow, no matter how good winter tire I can ever mount. In some condition, like little snow, you only have slippery roads due to the moisture of salt/snow/dirt on the road and 4wheel help reaming on trajectory but you may still drive on 2WD at least if you are a good enough driver, on heavier snow 4wheels means have enough traction to advance and enough grip to still have traction when some wheel slip.

toomuchtodo 8y ago

There are aftermarket hidden hitches for the Model S. I routinely pull a trailer with my S, sometimes up to the 2500lb hitch rating. It has served me better than my pickup truck I previously owned, and it only takes a moment to drop the trailer before Supercharging at stations where I can’t pull thru.

dsfyu404ed 8y ago
>sometimes up to the 2500lb hitch rating That's an impressively terrible rating for something with the curb weight of a 90s 1/2 ton pickup. I suspect the vehicle could comfortably handle far more considering how much better the power and brakes are than a 90s pickup but they don't want to be replacing certain parts under warranty (my guess would be CVs since the S has plenty of torque and traction to hurt them with).
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  In almost a decade of owning a 1/2 ton pickup, only twice did I pull a load over that rating. No need to optimize for rare workloads. If I need to haul more than 2500 lbs, I’m renting a truck for the job. The underlying issue is a lot of pickups are road queens and entirely unnecessary for their daily workloads, existing as status symbols first and a mode of transportation second.
  - gregimba 8y ago
    I regularly nearly exceed the load capacity of a 1/2 pickup. Some of them are road queens but some people actually use a truck for its intended purpose.
    - toomuchtodo 8y ago
      In which case a pickup truck is a superior solution over current EVs.
  - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
    Meh. Most people only ever use the front row of seating in their vehicle the overwhelming majority of the time. Pickups are just vehicles where the extra space is optimized for non-human cargo. The richer you are the more likely you are to buy enough vehicle for the most extreme case. If we all bought what we needed for the average case there would be a lot more subcompacts sold.

messo 8y ago

VW is working hard to deliver mass produced Passat-like EVs in 2020. They will be priced the same as their current fossil cars, which gives the new electric lineup a huge advantage in Norway due to high taxes on fossil cars. More info here: http://www.fullychargedshow.co.uk/electric-cars/2018/12/17/vw-id-test-car-exclusive-drive http://www.fullychargedshow.co.uk/electric-cars/2018/12/17/v...

janvidar 8y ago
The ID, is closer to a Golf in size, which is significantly smaller than a Passat.

sillypuddy 8y ago

Why does the average Norwegian need a roof rack and a tow bar?

TomasEkeli 8y ago
Skis and big gardens.
unchocked 8y ago
Because Norway is an amazing wilderness and Norwegians use it.
dagss 8y ago
Roof rack: Skis. (And the Model X ski box behind car on tow bar solution look unwieldy and ridiculous, but there are still lots of them around here, as the only EV compromise that sort of ticks all the boxes.) And kayaks too. Tow bar: Not sure what others do without them. Furniture shops lend out trailers for free so that you can take your new sofa with you back home. I recently transported the materials for building my new front deck on a trailer. I tend to rent a trailer for taking things to the landfill/recycling facilities especially when renovating my home (and Norwegians do a lot of home renovation..). When helping young people move a trailer is all it takes. Etc etc. I used a tow bar at least five times a year for misc errands. (Now I have a Model S and have to leech on neighbors) I am not sure why this is different and how e.g. US or German or French culture would be digferent.. I guess the alternative is paying others for delivery/disposal, doing less handiwork oneself, and (in the case of US) buying pickup trucks that in no way will fit on Norwegian roads and parking lots.
- henrikschroder 8y ago
  Trailers are pretty much unheard of in the US. You either have or borrow a pickup truck instead, because everyone has one or knows someone that has one. As a result, almost no cars in the US has a tow bar. Except pickup trucks. That don't really need them. Because you haul stuff directly in the truck.
  - 8y ago

csmac3144 8y ago

Norway is one of the world's largest per capita producers of greenhouse gases. Norway adds 1.6 million barrels of oil per day to the world's market. Buying EVs might make people feel virtuous, but it makes no real difference compared to the enormous fossil fuel output.

A2017U1 8y ago
Since when do people count exports as emissions? No one is forcing countries to buy that oil and refusing to sell it is inconsequential. Also their grid is 100% renewable and per capita they are around half of US emissions and on par with most of Europe.
- freehunter 8y ago
  It's not that much different than blaming the sellers of military equipment for the atrocities committed by that military equipment. If County A sells bombs to County B knowing that Country B will use them to commit genocide in Country C, County A can't be entirely off the hook for that genocide. Sure if Country A didn't sell then another country would, and sure no one forced Country B to buy those weapons, but Country A still knew what the outcome was going to be when they made the sale. And Country A decided that the money was worth the ethical consequences. If you produce and sell oil, even if you don't use the oil yourself, you know full well what that oil will be used for.
  - janvidar 8y ago
    Genocide?
    - freehunter 8y ago
      If one single word from an overly-obvious analogy is your main take-away from what I wrote, I would encourage you to just move on. It's probably not worth your time.
  - akiselev 8y ago

cmrdporcupine 8y ago

Third party roof rack and tow options are totally possible for pretty much most of the mainline EVs. I'm putting a roof rack on my Volt for a ski trip in two weeks. Towing hitch is discouraged by manufacturer, but many many people have done it. But yes, luggage is a concern. Though my Volt mostly fits my needs given we have a second, ICE, hauling vehicle. There will be more options soon. I hope.

dagss 8y ago
Cannot legally add a tow hitch in Norway though.
leoh 8y ago
You can't put a roof rack on a Model X because of the wing doors.
mikepurvis 8y ago
Not many options for Model X racks; kind of unsurprising given the door configuration. Though this nutter has his skis on there with a suction cup rack: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sUjHUTpZdA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sUjHUTpZdA

ip26 8y ago

Is the range still a big deal? Norway is not as big as the USA, and you can nearly get from Oslo to Bergen in a Chevy Bolt. (Stockholm, I'll admit, is too far for one charge)

janvidar 8y ago
Oslo-Bergen is ~460km crossing mountains. Oslo-Stockholm is ~530km mostly flat. You probably need to charge either way.