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> I don't know what he's done to earn my trust, or any investor's. The ~20x ROI since IPO has made many people trust him. Tesla itself is a marvelous success,

> I don't know what he's done to earn my trust, or any investor's. The ~20x ROI since IPO has made many people trust him. Tesla itself is a marvelous success, with no established car maker able to match them yet. It is far more likely that your personal dislike of him is making you see a distorted reality.

clouddrover 8y ago
> with no established car maker able to match them yet. The Hyundai Kona EV is cheaper, has good range, and outperforms new model Teslas in 24-hour efficiency (interestingly finishing second to the original Tesla Roadster): https://insideevs.com/hyundai-kona-electric-gets-shockingly-low-price-tag-in-us/ https://insideevs.com/hyundai-kona-electric-gets-shockingly-... https://electrek.co/2018/12/23/tesla-roadster-24-hour-electric-race/ https://electrek.co/2018/12/23/tesla-roadster-24-hour-electr... Teslas are among the least reliable cars you can buy. If you want high reliability and low maintenance costs, you're best off with a sensible Toyota today: https://www.consumerreports.org/media-room/press-releases/2018/10/consumer_reports_annual_reliability_survey_tesla_and_other_domestic_brands_take_big_steps_backwards_in_rankings11/ https://www.consumerreports.org/media-room/press-releases/20... Here are some currently available and soon to be available EVs from established car makers: https://www.hyundai.co.uk/new-cars/kona-electric https://www.hyundai.co.uk/new-cars/kona-electric https://www.kia.com/uk/new-cars/all-new-e-niro/ https://www.kia.com/uk/new-cars/all-new-e-niro/ https://www.jaguarusa.com/all-models/i-pace/index.html https://www.jaguarusa.com/all-models/i-pace/index.html https://www.e-tron.audi/en https://www.e-tron.audi/en VW has to sell electrics to meet the new fleet emissions targets set by the EU and they're going to do it with their MEB platform: http://fortune.com/2018/12/20/volkswagen-electric-cars-emissions/ http://fortune.com/2018/12/20/volkswagen-electric-cars-emiss... https://electrek.co/2018/09/18/vw-meb-platform-electric-for-all-affordable-evs/ https://electrek.co/2018/09/18/vw-meb-platform-electric-for-... Right now the primary reason to buy a Tesla is the novelty of buying a battery electric. But when all manufacturers are producing battery electrics, why am I buying a Tesla?
- adamqureshi 8y ago
  Do you have a list of EV direct to consumer VS Dealership / franchise model distribution? Tesla the only player in this space?
- dmode 8y ago
  Tesla just sold 63K Model 3s in a single quarter. Despite availability of Leaf and Bolt [both are cheaper]. None of the vehicles you have listed are true competitors to Tesla at this time. True competition will be something like an electric 3 series or C-class
  - pkulak 8y ago
    The Jag and Audi are _absolutely_ competitors.
    - dmode 8y ago
      Jag IPace sold less than 200 vehicles in the US in November 2018[1]. Comparably Model X sold ~1875 in Nov 2017. [2] [1] https://insideevs.com/november-jaguar-i-pace-sales-u-s/ https://insideevs.com/november-jaguar-i-pace-sales-u-s/ [2] http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/tesla/tesla-model-x/ http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/tesla/tesla-model-... I live in the most EV friendly region in the US and I hardly see I-Paces. Meanwhile Tesla is just crushing it here.
    - natch 8y ago
      They are priced higher than the long range dual motor model of the Tesla Model 3, yet they have significantly lower range and the Audi has inferior performance where the expensive Jaguar barely matches the 3. But unlike Tesla, both lack the supercharger network so good luck traveling with them. Competitors? Maybe, but not really all that competitive.
- Zarel 8y ago
  The last time this came up, many people said that the primary reason to buy a Tesla was for Autopilot, which I have not yet heard of another manufacturer with an equivalent product. I think another advantage Tesla has is the Supercharger station access.
ivraatiems 8y ago
> It is far more likely that your personal dislike of him is making you see a distorted reality. Certainly possible. I personally think he's acting like a buffoon and I haven't been shy about stating it. However, as I told another commenter in this thread, I think the relatively objective argument is that while Musk was necessary initially to get Tesla into existence and functioning, he's now more of a liability than an asset. It's not that he was never valuable or never deserved any trust - rather that he doesn't deserve it now. Put another way: At what point does the goodwill he's earned expire?
- permatech 8y ago
  > I think the relatively objective argument is that while Musk was necessary initially to get Tesla into existence and functioning Martin Eberhard and Marc Tarpennin initially got Tesla into existence.
  - minhazm 8y ago
    True, but Elon Musk led their series A, which is also when he joined the company along with J.B. Yes Martin and Marc created the company, but it would not be where it is today without Elon Musk. It doesn't always matter who initially created the company. For example one of the co-founders of Apple was Ronald Wayne, whom the vast majority of people have never heard of. He left Apple very early and sold all his shares back to Jobs and Wozniak for $800.
- jsight 8y ago
  I have always seen him as a bit like William Durant. His use expires when the company is no longer trying to grow at 2x every 3 years. Alternatively, he could dramatically change his approach as the business matures.
OldFatCactus 8y ago
Match them at what?

clouddrover 8y ago

> with no established car maker able to match them yet. The Hyundai Kona EV is cheaper, has good range, and outperforms new model Teslas in 24-hour efficiency (interestingly finishing second to the original Tesla Roadster): https://insideevs.com/hyundai-kona-electric-gets-shockingly-low-price-tag-in-us/ https://insideevs.com/hyundai-kona-electric-gets-shockingly-... https://electrek.co/2018/12/23/tesla-roadster-24-hour-electric-race/ https://electrek.co/2018/12/23/tesla-roadster-24-hour-electr... Teslas are among the least reliable cars you can buy. If you want high reliability and low maintenance costs, you're best off with a sensible Toyota today: https://www.consumerreports.org/media-room/press-releases/2018/10/consumer_reports_annual_reliability_survey_tesla_and_other_domestic_brands_take_big_steps_backwards_in_rankings11/ https://www.consumerreports.org/media-room/press-releases/20... Here are some currently available and soon to be available EVs from established car makers: https://www.hyundai.co.uk/new-cars/kona-electric https://www.hyundai.co.uk/new-cars/kona-electric https://www.kia.com/uk/new-cars/all-new-e-niro/ https://www.kia.com/uk/new-cars/all-new-e-niro/ https://www.jaguarusa.com/all-models/i-pace/index.html https://www.jaguarusa.com/all-models/i-pace/index.html https://www.e-tron.audi/en https://www.e-tron.audi/en VW has to sell electrics to meet the new fleet emissions targets set by the EU and they're going to do it with their MEB platform: http://fortune.com/2018/12/20/volkswagen-electric-cars-emissions/ http://fortune.com/2018/12/20/volkswagen-electric-cars-emiss... https://electrek.co/2018/09/18/vw-meb-platform-electric-for-all-affordable-evs/ https://electrek.co/2018/09/18/vw-meb-platform-electric-for-... Right now the primary reason to buy a Tesla is the novelty of buying a battery electric. But when all manufacturers are producing battery electrics, why am I buying a Tesla?

adamqureshi 8y ago
Do you have a list of EV direct to consumer VS Dealership / franchise model distribution? Tesla the only player in this space?
dmode 8y ago
Tesla just sold 63K Model 3s in a single quarter. Despite availability of Leaf and Bolt [both are cheaper]. None of the vehicles you have listed are true competitors to Tesla at this time. True competition will be something like an electric 3 series or C-class
- pkulak 8y ago
  The Jag and Audi are _absolutely_ competitors.
  - dmode 8y ago
    Jag IPace sold less than 200 vehicles in the US in November 2018[1]. Comparably Model X sold ~1875 in Nov 2017. [2] [1] https://insideevs.com/november-jaguar-i-pace-sales-u-s/ https://insideevs.com/november-jaguar-i-pace-sales-u-s/ [2] http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/tesla/tesla-model-x/ http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/tesla/tesla-model-... I live in the most EV friendly region in the US and I hardly see I-Paces. Meanwhile Tesla is just crushing it here.
  - natch 8y ago
    They are priced higher than the long range dual motor model of the Tesla Model 3, yet they have significantly lower range and the Audi has inferior performance where the expensive Jaguar barely matches the 3. But unlike Tesla, both lack the supercharger network so good luck traveling with them. Competitors? Maybe, but not really all that competitive.
Zarel 8y ago
The last time this came up, many people said that the primary reason to buy a Tesla was for Autopilot, which I have not yet heard of another manufacturer with an equivalent product. I think another advantage Tesla has is the Supercharger station access.

ivraatiems 8y ago

> It is far more likely that your personal dislike of him is making you see a distorted reality. Certainly possible. I personally think he's acting like a buffoon and I haven't been shy about stating it. However, as I told another commenter in this thread, I think the relatively objective argument is that while Musk was necessary initially to get Tesla into existence and functioning, he's now more of a liability than an asset. It's not that he was never valuable or never deserved any trust - rather that he doesn't deserve it now. Put another way: At what point does the goodwill he's earned expire?

permatech 8y ago
> I think the relatively objective argument is that while Musk was necessary initially to get Tesla into existence and functioning Martin Eberhard and Marc Tarpennin initially got Tesla into existence.
- minhazm 8y ago
  True, but Elon Musk led their series A, which is also when he joined the company along with J.B. Yes Martin and Marc created the company, but it would not be where it is today without Elon Musk. It doesn't always matter who initially created the company. For example one of the co-founders of Apple was Ronald Wayne, whom the vast majority of people have never heard of. He left Apple very early and sold all his shares back to Jobs and Wozniak for $800.
jsight 8y ago
I have always seen him as a bit like William Durant. His use expires when the company is no longer trying to grow at 2x every 3 years. Alternatively, he could dramatically change his approach as the business matures.

OldFatCactus 8y ago

Match them at what?