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This narrative doesn't resonate with me. Forward looking statements are speculative, especially when you're innovating new technologies. I personally trust Elo

This narrative doesn't resonate with me. Forward looking statements are speculative, especially when you're innovating new technologies. I personally trust Elon Musk and I am a large investor. I don't expect him to hit all his targets, but I trust him to only raise money on the heels of good news.

ivraatiems 8y ago
Characterizing lying to the SEC and calling a Thai cave rescuer a "pedo" as such is stretching the definition of "forward-looking statement." Musk has always been largely bluster, but now the bluster is hurting people, and his companies as well. He's the biggest liability Tesla has. I don't know what he's done to earn my trust, or any investor's.
- mav3rick 8y ago
  If bluster results in the first truly desirable EV cars and the first autonomous reusable rocket then more bluster please. The rage machine against Elon here is preposterous. At the end of the day , is he making the world a better place ?. No amount of contrived answers involving Twitter can change the vehement "Yes" to that question.
  - ivraatiems 8y ago
    > At the end of the day, is he making the world a better place? With rare exception, I don't subscribe to the idea of "key men" in general, and especially not in this case. Even if I did, I don't think that Musk is acting in a way that makes him an asset. I agree that Tesla, for instance, is doing good and important work. However, I think attributing Tesla's success, and net impact on the world to Musk alone is unsupported by evidence. That's because aside from initial investment/PR, and sufficient cult of personality to inspire people to work for him at the start, I don't see what Elon Musk is contributing to the company's work at this point. In fact, I see him as a liability and I think Tesla would be better off without him. Candidly, I also believe that if Musk was less driven by his own ego, as he appears to be, he'd see that and step aside.
    - _ph_ 8y ago
      Of course, the success of Tesla isn't based on Musk alone. There are thousands of Tesla employees contributing to it. Be it in engineering or production. However, Musk is the glue which ties all of this together. He set the direction, contributed quite a lot of his personal money in the beginning and is at the steering wheel.
    - kitsunesoba 8y ago
      I would say that his contribution to Tesla is mostly a sense of urgency and direction. Certainly some more “normal” CEO could come in and make the company more profitable, but it’d come with steep cost: the company would also become very stagnant and very boring. That’d be great for Wall Street but it’d bum me out pretty badly.
    - londons_explore 8y ago
      I think there is another way to make this comparison: If Musk did not exist, and Tesla as a company did not exist, then all the engineers, expertise, effort, and capital that is currently with Tesla would be placed elsewhere. Would all those people and resources do more good with all the other companies?
  - hopler 8y ago
    Tesla is one of many companies making mass market electric cars. Piling on luxury touches isn't making the world a better place. Tesla's $35K car (when if ever shows shows up) isn't better than anyone else's. He's just coming down from higher price points on fancier cars while others are improving at the same price point.
    - jpatokal 8y ago
      Have you driven or been in a Tesla? These are manifestly not the same cars as anyone else's.
    - mav3rick 8y ago
      Model 3's are everywhere, especially in the Bay Area. But sure say false things to suit your narrative.
- martythemaniak 8y ago
  > I don't know what he's done to earn my trust, or any investor's. The ~20x ROI since IPO has made many people trust him. Tesla itself is a marvelous success, with no established car maker able to match them yet. It is far more likely that your personal dislike of him is making you see a distorted reality.
  - clouddrover 8y ago
    > with no established car maker able to match them yet. The Hyundai Kona EV is cheaper, has good range, and outperforms new model Teslas in 24-hour efficiency (interestingly finishing second to the original Tesla Roadster): https://insideevs.com/hyundai-kona-electric-gets-shockingly-low-price-tag-in-us/ https://insideevs.com/hyundai-kona-electric-gets-shockingly-... https://electrek.co/2018/12/23/tesla-roadster-24-hour-electric-race/ https://electrek.co/2018/12/23/tesla-roadster-24-hour-electr... Teslas are among the least reliable cars you can buy. If you want high reliability and low maintenance costs, you're best off with a sensible Toyota today: https://www.consumerreports.org/media-room/press-releases/2018/10/consumer_reports_annual_reliability_survey_tesla_and_other_domestic_brands_take_big_steps_backwards_in_rankings11/ https://www.consumerreports.org/media-room/press-releases/20... Here are some currently available and soon to be available EVs from established car makers: https://www.hyundai.co.uk/new-cars/kona-electric https://www.hyundai.co.uk/new-cars/kona-electric https://www.kia.com/uk/new-cars/all-new-e-niro/ https://www.kia.com/uk/new-cars/all-new-e-niro/ https://www.jaguarusa.com/all-models/i-pace/index.html https://www.jaguarusa.com/all-models/i-pace/index.html https://www.e-tron.audi/en https://www.e-tron.audi/en VW has to sell electrics to meet the new fleet emissions targets set by the EU and they're going to do it with their MEB platform: http://fortune.com/2018/12/20/volkswagen-electric-cars-emissions/ http://fortune.com/2018/12/20/volkswagen-electric-cars-emiss... https://electrek.co/2018/09/18/vw-meb-platform-electric-for-all-affordable-evs/ https://electrek.co/2018/09/18/vw-meb-platform-electric-for-... Right now the primary reason to buy a Tesla is the novelty of buying a battery electric. But when all manufacturers are producing battery electrics, why am I buying a Tesla?
    - adamqureshi 8y ago
      Do you have a list of EV direct to consumer VS Dealership / franchise model distribution? Tesla the only player in this space?
- Riesling 8y ago
  You didn't happen to have a short position on Tesla when the infamous 420 tweet happened?
- alexandros 8y ago
  Elon has not lied to the SEC. Please provide link or other evidence. He settled a claim that he manipulated the stock without admitting guilt, in order to avoid damaging the company, but that is completely different.
  - scrumbledober 8y ago
    he said "funding secured" and didn't have any funding secured. The SEC was lenient in allowing the settlement without an admission of guilt, but that does not mean he was not guilty. I'm a huge fan of most of the things he has done, but this was a boneheaded move only surpassed by his embarrassing pedophilia comments.
    - Agathos 8y ago
      Technically he was lying to his investors, not the SEC. Of course then in that 60 Minutes interview he all but declared he wouldn't honor his side of the settlement, but we'll see if he follows through on that.
- dwaltrip 8y ago
  You are ignoring a decade plus of very impressive results. Sure, the man has significant flaws. That is not justification for an inaccurate portrayal.
  - cjhopman 8y ago
    What results? Give me $30 billion dollars to waste and I can easily show you $28 billion dollars of progress.
- stanfordkid 8y ago
  Landing rockets on autonomous drone barges, coming out with a sedan that beats a Lamborghini Aventador in 0-60 acceleration at 1/6th the cost, thereby pushing the state of the art across the entire car industry. Seems like a guy I would trust.
  - londons_explore 8y ago
    My model rockets do 0 to 60 in well under a second, and I'm totally not a guy you should trust.
Jarbooski 8y ago
There's a difference between forward looking statements and claiming you have technology that doesn't exist.
threeseed 8y ago
> Forward looking statements are speculative, especially when you're innovating new technologies The innovation comes purely from the battery and associated electronics. The rest of the car is pretty standard and it's in this area where they are having problems. There are plenty of car companies with electric cars today e.g. Jaguar, BMW, Nissan, GM and in 2019/2020 everyone else is jumping onboard e.g. Audi, Landrover etc. And they have managed to hit their targets.
jsgo 8y ago
His pitch on the solar tiles that would cost* at or less a typical shingled roof had me incredibly sold, but it seems that has taken a back seat as of late in his endeavors. Yeah, would love an electric car, but until they hit the $35k price point, it isn't happening anytime soon for me. But a fairly priced solar setup for home? Sign me up. * not sure if it was initial cost or cost over the life of plus the energy savings, I don't remember nor really care. Either is fine by me.
- gibolt 8y ago
  It is over the life of shingles plus energy. That won't be true of the first few years of sales. As an upside, I think the comparison is with one roof replacement, which is supposed to be done every 8-20 years. Tesla tiles should last 100 years.
- ams6110 8y ago
  When I can buy a reliable $5k ICE car (which are the kind of cars I drive) I don't see an EV ever really making sense.
  - beerlord 8y ago
    They have them in China: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kILXXaqspcI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kILXXaqspcI

ivraatiems 8y ago

Characterizing lying to the SEC and calling a Thai cave rescuer a "pedo" as such is stretching the definition of "forward-looking statement." Musk has always been largely bluster, but now the bluster is hurting people, and his companies as well. He's the biggest liability Tesla has. I don't know what he's done to earn my trust, or any investor's.

mav3rick 8y ago
If bluster results in the first truly desirable EV cars and the first autonomous reusable rocket then more bluster please. The rage machine against Elon here is preposterous. At the end of the day , is he making the world a better place ?. No amount of contrived answers involving Twitter can change the vehement "Yes" to that question.
- ivraatiems 8y ago
  > At the end of the day, is he making the world a better place? With rare exception, I don't subscribe to the idea of "key men" in general, and especially not in this case. Even if I did, I don't think that Musk is acting in a way that makes him an asset. I agree that Tesla, for instance, is doing good and important work. However, I think attributing Tesla's success, and net impact on the world to Musk alone is unsupported by evidence. That's because aside from initial investment/PR, and sufficient cult of personality to inspire people to work for him at the start, I don't see what Elon Musk is contributing to the company's work at this point. In fact, I see him as a liability and I think Tesla would be better off without him. Candidly, I also believe that if Musk was less driven by his own ego, as he appears to be, he'd see that and step aside.
  - _ph_ 8y ago
    Of course, the success of Tesla isn't based on Musk alone. There are thousands of Tesla employees contributing to it. Be it in engineering or production. However, Musk is the glue which ties all of this together. He set the direction, contributed quite a lot of his personal money in the beginning and is at the steering wheel.
  - kitsunesoba 8y ago
    I would say that his contribution to Tesla is mostly a sense of urgency and direction. Certainly some more “normal” CEO could come in and make the company more profitable, but it’d come with steep cost: the company would also become very stagnant and very boring. That’d be great for Wall Street but it’d bum me out pretty badly.
  - londons_explore 8y ago
    I think there is another way to make this comparison: If Musk did not exist, and Tesla as a company did not exist, then all the engineers, expertise, effort, and capital that is currently with Tesla would be placed elsewhere. Would all those people and resources do more good with all the other companies?
- hopler 8y ago
  Tesla is one of many companies making mass market electric cars. Piling on luxury touches isn't making the world a better place. Tesla's $35K car (when if ever shows shows up) isn't better than anyone else's. He's just coming down from higher price points on fancier cars while others are improving at the same price point.
  - jpatokal 8y ago
    Have you driven or been in a Tesla? These are manifestly not the same cars as anyone else's.
  - mav3rick 8y ago
    Model 3's are everywhere, especially in the Bay Area. But sure say false things to suit your narrative.
martythemaniak 8y ago
> I don't know what he's done to earn my trust, or any investor's. The ~20x ROI since IPO has made many people trust him. Tesla itself is a marvelous success, with no established car maker able to match them yet. It is far more likely that your personal dislike of him is making you see a distorted reality.
- clouddrover 8y ago
  > with no established car maker able to match them yet. The Hyundai Kona EV is cheaper, has good range, and outperforms new model Teslas in 24-hour efficiency (interestingly finishing second to the original Tesla Roadster): https://insideevs.com/hyundai-kona-electric-gets-shockingly-low-price-tag-in-us/ https://insideevs.com/hyundai-kona-electric-gets-shockingly-... https://electrek.co/2018/12/23/tesla-roadster-24-hour-electric-race/ https://electrek.co/2018/12/23/tesla-roadster-24-hour-electr... Teslas are among the least reliable cars you can buy. If you want high reliability and low maintenance costs, you're best off with a sensible Toyota today: https://www.consumerreports.org/media-room/press-releases/2018/10/consumer_reports_annual_reliability_survey_tesla_and_other_domestic_brands_take_big_steps_backwards_in_rankings11/ https://www.consumerreports.org/media-room/press-releases/20... Here are some currently available and soon to be available EVs from established car makers: https://www.hyundai.co.uk/new-cars/kona-electric https://www.hyundai.co.uk/new-cars/kona-electric https://www.kia.com/uk/new-cars/all-new-e-niro/ https://www.kia.com/uk/new-cars/all-new-e-niro/ https://www.jaguarusa.com/all-models/i-pace/index.html https://www.jaguarusa.com/all-models/i-pace/index.html https://www.e-tron.audi/en https://www.e-tron.audi/en VW has to sell electrics to meet the new fleet emissions targets set by the EU and they're going to do it with their MEB platform: http://fortune.com/2018/12/20/volkswagen-electric-cars-emissions/ http://fortune.com/2018/12/20/volkswagen-electric-cars-emiss... https://electrek.co/2018/09/18/vw-meb-platform-electric-for-all-affordable-evs/ https://electrek.co/2018/09/18/vw-meb-platform-electric-for-... Right now the primary reason to buy a Tesla is the novelty of buying a battery electric. But when all manufacturers are producing battery electrics, why am I buying a Tesla?
  - adamqureshi 8y ago
    Do you have a list of EV direct to consumer VS Dealership / franchise model distribution? Tesla the only player in this space?
Riesling 8y ago
You didn't happen to have a short position on Tesla when the infamous 420 tweet happened?
alexandros 8y ago
Elon has not lied to the SEC. Please provide link or other evidence. He settled a claim that he manipulated the stock without admitting guilt, in order to avoid damaging the company, but that is completely different.
- scrumbledober 8y ago
  he said "funding secured" and didn't have any funding secured. The SEC was lenient in allowing the settlement without an admission of guilt, but that does not mean he was not guilty. I'm a huge fan of most of the things he has done, but this was a boneheaded move only surpassed by his embarrassing pedophilia comments.
  - Agathos 8y ago
    Technically he was lying to his investors, not the SEC. Of course then in that 60 Minutes interview he all but declared he wouldn't honor his side of the settlement, but we'll see if he follows through on that.
dwaltrip 8y ago
You are ignoring a decade plus of very impressive results. Sure, the man has significant flaws. That is not justification for an inaccurate portrayal.
- cjhopman 8y ago
  What results? Give me $30 billion dollars to waste and I can easily show you $28 billion dollars of progress.
stanfordkid 8y ago
Landing rockets on autonomous drone barges, coming out with a sedan that beats a Lamborghini Aventador in 0-60 acceleration at 1/6th the cost, thereby pushing the state of the art across the entire car industry. Seems like a guy I would trust.
- londons_explore 8y ago
  My model rockets do 0 to 60 in well under a second, and I'm totally not a guy you should trust.

Jarbooski 8y ago

There's a difference between forward looking statements and claiming you have technology that doesn't exist.

threeseed 8y ago

> Forward looking statements are speculative, especially when you're innovating new technologies The innovation comes purely from the battery and associated electronics. The rest of the car is pretty standard and it's in this area where they are having problems. There are plenty of car companies with electric cars today e.g. Jaguar, BMW, Nissan, GM and in 2019/2020 everyone else is jumping onboard e.g. Audi, Landrover etc. And they have managed to hit their targets.

jsgo 8y ago

His pitch on the solar tiles that would cost* at or less a typical shingled roof had me incredibly sold, but it seems that has taken a back seat as of late in his endeavors. Yeah, would love an electric car, but until they hit the $35k price point, it isn't happening anytime soon for me. But a fairly priced solar setup for home? Sign me up. * not sure if it was initial cost or cost over the life of plus the energy savings, I don't remember nor really care. Either is fine by me.

gibolt 8y ago
It is over the life of shingles plus energy. That won't be true of the first few years of sales. As an upside, I think the comparison is with one roof replacement, which is supposed to be done every 8-20 years. Tesla tiles should last 100 years.
ams6110 8y ago
When I can buy a reliable $5k ICE car (which are the kind of cars I drive) I don't see an EV ever really making sense.
- beerlord 8y ago
  They have them in China: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kILXXaqspcI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kILXXaqspcI