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As an interesting side note to this, while we might (temporarily) lose some range on cold winter days, our car batteries have remarkable little degradation comp

by pi-rat 8y ago

As an interesting side note to this, while we might (temporarily) lose some range on cold winter days, our car batteries have remarkable little degradation compared to EVs from warmer climates. Used EVs imported from i.e. southern France to Norway usually have significantly lower remaining battery capacity than a car that has spent it's entire life in Norway. Seems heat really kills these things :)

pedrocr 8y ago
I had never heard about this. Do you have a reference? How big is the difference?
- pi-rat 8y ago
  I don't have any actual numbers, sorry. I just remember being warned to be careful about cars from hot climates (like southern europe, and some US locations) a few years ago when I was looking for a used Leaf. Demands for EVs were very high in Norway, and resellers had to import (and still do) used EVs from other countries. I found a life expectation chart for 3 US cities at [0]. It's well know that high temperatures (while in use and while in storage) degrade li-ion batteries[1]. However, electric cars have thermal management systems to try to protect the batteries from this effect (extreme heat and cold). Tesla have active water cooling, while Nissan Leaf use a simpler air cooling. They also use different battery chemistries that handle temperatures differently. If you have a look quick look at this talk[2] you'll hear that Nissan is using a chemistry that experience higher degradation under high temperatures than for example Tesla's choice. [0]: https://images.hgmsites.net/lrg/hot-weather-bad-for-electric-car-batteries_100394454_l.jpg https://images.hgmsites.net/lrg/hot-weather-bad-for-electric... [1]: https://www.plugincars.com/lithium-ion-batteries-can’t-stand-heat-122447.html https://www.plugincars.com/lithium-ion-batteries-can’t-stand... [2]: https://youtu.be/pxP0Cu00sZs?t=1516 https://youtu.be/pxP0Cu00sZs?t=1516
  - pedrocr 8y ago
    > a few years ago when I was looking for a used Leaf The Leaf was notorious for not actually cooling the battery so I can see how they would do better in Norway. Maybe the newest generations have improved on that. I'd be curious if that was the same for Tesla though, which supposedly keeps the battery temperate under much better control.
    - outworlder 8y ago
      Some Leaf generations are more sensitive than others (chemistry was slightly different). Sustained heat will still degrade them more quickly than expected though. Tesla has active temperature management, but also has a different chemistry which should be more sensitive than the one used in the Leaf.
olivermarks 8y ago
Better performance from batteries in hot climates but faster degradation due to heat soak. I believe this is also a significant issue with battery fire risk- the hotter the battery the more of an issue it is extinguishing compromised battery cells that are still powerful stores of energy after an accident. The recombustion issues after fires have been put out are more serious in hotter climates

by pi-rat 8y ago

pedrocr 8y ago

I had never heard about this. Do you have a reference? How big is the difference?

pi-rat 8y ago
I don't have any actual numbers, sorry. I just remember being warned to be careful about cars from hot climates (like southern europe, and some US locations) a few years ago when I was looking for a used Leaf. Demands for EVs were very high in Norway, and resellers had to import (and still do) used EVs from other countries. I found a life expectation chart for 3 US cities at [0]. It's well know that high temperatures (while in use and while in storage) degrade li-ion batteries[1]. However, electric cars have thermal management systems to try to protect the batteries from this effect (extreme heat and cold). Tesla have active water cooling, while Nissan Leaf use a simpler air cooling. They also use different battery chemistries that handle temperatures differently. If you have a look quick look at this talk[2] you'll hear that Nissan is using a chemistry that experience higher degradation under high temperatures than for example Tesla's choice. [0]: https://images.hgmsites.net/lrg/hot-weather-bad-for-electric-car-batteries_100394454_l.jpg https://images.hgmsites.net/lrg/hot-weather-bad-for-electric... [1]: https://www.plugincars.com/lithium-ion-batteries-can’t-stand-heat-122447.html https://www.plugincars.com/lithium-ion-batteries-can’t-stand... [2]: https://youtu.be/pxP0Cu00sZs?t=1516 https://youtu.be/pxP0Cu00sZs?t=1516
- pedrocr 8y ago
  > a few years ago when I was looking for a used Leaf The Leaf was notorious for not actually cooling the battery so I can see how they would do better in Norway. Maybe the newest generations have improved on that. I'd be curious if that was the same for Tesla though, which supposedly keeps the battery temperate under much better control.
  - outworlder 8y ago
    Some Leaf generations are more sensitive than others (chemistry was slightly different). Sustained heat will still degrade them more quickly than expected though. Tesla has active temperature management, but also has a different chemistry which should be more sensitive than the one used in the Leaf.

olivermarks 8y ago

Better performance from batteries in hot climates but faster degradation due to heat soak. I believe this is also a significant issue with battery fire risk- the hotter the battery the more of an issue it is extinguishing compromised battery cells that are still powerful stores of energy after an accident. The recombustion issues after fires have been put out are more serious in hotter climates