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This is just dumb. I'll go down his suggestions to point out why... - We need to have codes of conduct in our projects and conferences that specifically ban a

This is just dumb. I'll go down his suggestions to point out why... - We need to have codes of conduct in our projects and conferences that specifically ban abusive and sexist behavior: I don't see how a "Code of Conduct" is going to be more compelling than the law. Nor do I believe the type of person who would stick his hand down a girls pants or cheer someone like that on is going to adhere to a code of conduct no matter what. - Trainings around diversity and sexual harassment: Sexual Harassment trainings are done so employees will be able to recognize sexual harassment. Does anyone think there's an employee out there who wouldn't consider sticking your hand down a girl's pants sexual harassment? Moreover the two people didn't work for the same company anyway so it wasn't sexual harassment as much as it was a...y'know... felony. - Keep speaking out: As the post points out all "speaking out" did was cause this woman to be further abused. What she should (and apparently did do) is speak to the police. People keep trying to make this into a macro issue and it's not. There might very well be misogyny in the tech industry but this is no more a sign of it than a rapist would be a sign of misogyny in a particular town.

semanticist 16y ago
A community-created code of conduct is different from and can be more effective than standard law because it's coming from the community. Rather than being an abstract decision taken by 'other people' to make certain actions unwelcome, it's a concrete decision taken by 'our people'. Social enforcement is probably a more effective deterrent than legal enforcement.
gchaix 16y ago
TomfTTB, I think you missed some of my points in the post. Let's see if I can clarify: 1) Codes of conduct - I'm talking about community covenants that come from the community and that have real teeth enforced by the community. This is not about whether an action is illegal and enforceable in court, it's about a community setting standards of behavior for its members and taking real action against people who violate them. I can think of numerous unethical or abusive actions that, while not illegal, could (and should) be included in a community code of conduct as worthy of censure. 2) Training - I'm not talking about some quick and shallow two hour seminar with a cheezy twenty minute "this is sexual harassment" video. Those are nearly worthless. I'm talking about the much longer intensive trainings offered for and by domestic violence/sexual assault service agencies. Trainings where we learn to see the culture of oppression and violence through the eyes of the people who have survived it. We're talking about changing a culture and its underlying frame of reference, not simply pointing at something and saying, "don't do that, it's bad." 3) Speaking out - my point was that we need to be better at speaking out for exactly the reason you described. We need to do more than just shout incoherently into the void. We need to be more deliberate regarding how we speak out. A quiet, one-on-one "dude, you can't say crap like that" to a peer or an "I'm sorry, but our community does not allow its members to behave in that manner. Please leave now," is more valuable and effective than a thousand blog comments. It's not a question of whether we speak out, but how we speak out. Lastly, I'm not trying to make this into a "micro issue". I'm pointing out that the tech community is particularly hostile to women. Compared with the other communities I've worked with (primarily in the non-profit and education sectors), the tech community is shockingly bad.
- jdp23 16y ago
  Excellent points. It's disappointing to see the TomfTTB's comment ranked so much higher than this response.

semanticist 16y ago

A community-created code of conduct is different from and can be more effective than standard law because it's coming from the community. Rather than being an abstract decision taken by 'other people' to make certain actions unwelcome, it's a concrete decision taken by 'our people'. Social enforcement is probably a more effective deterrent than legal enforcement.

gchaix 16y ago

TomfTTB, I think you missed some of my points in the post. Let's see if I can clarify: 1) Codes of conduct - I'm talking about community covenants that come from the community and that have real teeth enforced by the community. This is not about whether an action is illegal and enforceable in court, it's about a community setting standards of behavior for its members and taking real action against people who violate them. I can think of numerous unethical or abusive actions that, while not illegal, could (and should) be included in a community code of conduct as worthy of censure. 2) Training - I'm not talking about some quick and shallow two hour seminar with a cheezy twenty minute "this is sexual harassment" video. Those are nearly worthless. I'm talking about the much longer intensive trainings offered for and by domestic violence/sexual assault service agencies. Trainings where we learn to see the culture of oppression and violence through the eyes of the people who have survived it. We're talking about changing a culture and its underlying frame of reference, not simply pointing at something and saying, "don't do that, it's bad." 3) Speaking out - my point was that we need to be better at speaking out for exactly the reason you described. We need to do more than just shout incoherently into the void. We need to be more deliberate regarding how we speak out. A quiet, one-on-one "dude, you can't say crap like that" to a peer or an "I'm sorry, but our community does not allow its members to behave in that manner. Please leave now," is more valuable and effective than a thousand blog comments. It's not a question of whether we speak out, but how we speak out. Lastly, I'm not trying to make this into a "micro issue". I'm pointing out that the tech community is particularly hostile to women. Compared with the other communities I've worked with (primarily in the non-profit and education sectors), the tech community is shockingly bad.

jdp23 16y ago
Excellent points. It's disappointing to see the TomfTTB's comment ranked so much higher than this response.