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This is an interesting blog post, but I have to nitpick at a couple points. First, the author says "Touching someone without their consent is assault." I hope

by autarch 16y ago

This is an interesting blog post, but I have to nitpick at a couple points. First, the author says "Touching someone without their consent is assault." I hope that's just a not-so-well-thought-out sentence. What was described in the [original blog post http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/418 http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/418] that started this firestorm went well beyond "touching". I hope we don't end up in a place where just touching someone (like a hand on someone's shoulder) is actually bad. That said, I really dislike even casual touch from anyone but people I'm very close too, so I can sympathize with people not liking that, but that's not the same as assault. I think there's other ways to handle things that make us uncomfortable without criminalizing them. Second, I'm not sure if the author is implying in the final paragraph that sexual assault is one of the main reasons the male-female ratio at most tech conferences is so off. He just says it's "due to the behavior of us, the straight white male majority in the open source community". That problem behavior often falls far short of sexual assault, but the behavior is still problematic ("how to X like a porn star" presentations, anyone?). I suspect that there are also many other reasons that women don't go to conferences. I would love for someone to do some research on what is keeping women away so that we could make these conferences more attractive to everyone.

araneae 16y ago
"I'm not sure if the author is implying in the final paragraph that sexual assault is one of the main reasons the male-female ratio at most tech conferences is so off." I have a female friend that regularly attends tech conferences, and she said that what surprised her about the blog post is not only that it happened at a tech conference, but that it had happened before. She said that she generally feels pretty safe at tech conferences and that people have always been very respectful of her. That said, she's a sample size of one. But I'm not sure a sample size of two is enough to conclude it's a pervasive problem at conferences that really needs to be dealt with on a population level.
- tptacek 16y ago
  Without offering any evidence to support this, I agree that it feels like this should be a rare event, if only because sexually assaulting someone attending a conference with friends is a great way to get your teeth knocked out, and that's a story I haven't heard before.
wnoise 16y ago
> First, the author says "Touching someone without their consent is assault." I hope that's just a not-so-well-thought-out sentence. Me too. Technically, it's battery. Assault is making someone afraid of battery. (Common law definitions. Many states have codified somewhat different terminology. There's also distinctions in what's required between the tort of battery, and the crime.) > I hope we don't end up in a place where just touching someone (like a hand on someone's shoulder) is actually bad. It's not actually bad. It's bad if you do it when they don't want you to. When they don't mind, it's fine. When they welcome it, it's good.[1] Keeping one's hands to one's self is something everybody should have learned in kindergarten. [1] Note that verbal consent before hand need not be the gold standard. But if they intend to sue or press charges, it's damn good evidence that the touching was not welcome. If they shrink away, it's not welcome. If they lean into it, it is. It's really not that hard.
- gchaix 16y ago
  Sorry. I'm not a lawyer. I didn't phrase that sentence well. I had originally said "no means no" there, but felt that that was equally easy to misunderstand - we shouldn't be waiting until someone physically assaults a community member before we step in.
j_baker 16y ago
"I hope that's just a not-so-well-thought-out sentence." This was at ApacheCon, which was in Georgia. A quick Google says that what she said is probably the truth, albeit maybe a bit oversimplified. The only difference is that touching would be considered battery, not assault: "Simple battery is defined under Georgia law as intentionally causing harm to another person or touching them in an insulting or provoking nature." http://www.mygeorgiadefenselawyer.com/georgia-criminal-offenses-penalties/assault-and-battery/ http://www.mygeorgiadefenselawyer.com/georgia-criminal-offen... Regardless, I think that what the author actually said (touching without consent) isn't a bad way to think about what not to do. If I put my hand on someone's shoulder, do I have reason to believe they won't consent? Not at all.
- gchaix 16y ago
  I didn't really intend the blog post to start a discussion about whether this specific incident at ApacheCon is legally-defined as "assault" or "battery" or "sexual abuse" or "harassment" or "insert legal term here". That's not really the point. You're right - it was a badly-worded sentence that I should have spent more time wordsmithing it. Mea culpa. My intent was to say, "things like what apparently occurred in Atlanta should never be allowed to happen. We all know it, so let's move on to looking at the greater societal issues incidents like this serve to highlight." This is an example of a systemic problem within our community that goes beyond a single incident. I invite you to step back a bit and take a look at the attitudes reflected in the day-to-day interaction within our community. Sexist comments and jokes are common. I've been told by more than one woman that she's had to use a gender-neutral or male handle on community IRC channels and fora in order to be taken seriously and/or avoid lewd demands for topless pictures. I've never seen this sort of thing happen elsewhere. The open source community is especially bad when compared to other professional communities. As I saw someone post this weekend, "this isn't the 1960's, we aren't in a Mad Men episode." Things that haven't been acceptable in more than 50 years still occur without comment in our community. I'm trying to shine a light on the problem in an attempt to encourage us to do better.
gchaix 16y ago
I struggled with several parts of the post trying to make the wording clear. You quite correctly found two of them. I'm talking more about the cultural attitudes that are represented in the comments than I am about the actual event (since I wasn't there and don't want to wade into something I know little to nothing about). The comments, however, are indicative of what many people in our community seem to think is an acceptable attitude. That callous and insensitive attitude is what makes our community hostile to women. I'm not just talking about conferences - although the alcohol-fueled hothouse atmosphere certainly exaggerates the issue - I'm talking about the entirety of the working environment. The mail lists, fora, IRC channels, etc. where hurtful or inappropriate behavior serves as a strong disincentive for women to join or continue to participate.

by autarch 16y ago

araneae 16y ago

"I'm not sure if the author is implying in the final paragraph that sexual assault is one of the main reasons the male-female ratio at most tech conferences is so off." I have a female friend that regularly attends tech conferences, and she said that what surprised her about the blog post is not only that it happened at a tech conference, but that it had happened before. She said that she generally feels pretty safe at tech conferences and that people have always been very respectful of her. That said, she's a sample size of one. But I'm not sure a sample size of two is enough to conclude it's a pervasive problem at conferences that really needs to be dealt with on a population level.

tptacek 16y ago
Without offering any evidence to support this, I agree that it feels like this should be a rare event, if only because sexually assaulting someone attending a conference with friends is a great way to get your teeth knocked out, and that's a story I haven't heard before.

wnoise 16y ago

> First, the author says "Touching someone without their consent is assault." I hope that's just a not-so-well-thought-out sentence. Me too. Technically, it's battery. Assault is making someone afraid of battery. (Common law definitions. Many states have codified somewhat different terminology. There's also distinctions in what's required between the tort of battery, and the crime.) > I hope we don't end up in a place where just touching someone (like a hand on someone's shoulder) is actually bad. It's not actually bad. It's bad if you do it when they don't want you to. When they don't mind, it's fine. When they welcome it, it's good.[1] Keeping one's hands to one's self is something everybody should have learned in kindergarten. [1] Note that verbal consent before hand need not be the gold standard. But if they intend to sue or press charges, it's damn good evidence that the touching was not welcome. If they shrink away, it's not welcome. If they lean into it, it is. It's really not that hard.

gchaix 16y ago
Sorry. I'm not a lawyer. I didn't phrase that sentence well. I had originally said "no means no" there, but felt that that was equally easy to misunderstand - we shouldn't be waiting until someone physically assaults a community member before we step in.

j_baker 16y ago

"I hope that's just a not-so-well-thought-out sentence." This was at ApacheCon, which was in Georgia. A quick Google says that what she said is probably the truth, albeit maybe a bit oversimplified. The only difference is that touching would be considered battery, not assault: "Simple battery is defined under Georgia law as intentionally causing harm to another person or touching them in an insulting or provoking nature." http://www.mygeorgiadefenselawyer.com/georgia-criminal-offenses-penalties/assault-and-battery/ http://www.mygeorgiadefenselawyer.com/georgia-criminal-offen... Regardless, I think that what the author actually said (touching without consent) isn't a bad way to think about what not to do. If I put my hand on someone's shoulder, do I have reason to believe they won't consent? Not at all.

gchaix 16y ago
I didn't really intend the blog post to start a discussion about whether this specific incident at ApacheCon is legally-defined as "assault" or "battery" or "sexual abuse" or "harassment" or "insert legal term here". That's not really the point. You're right - it was a badly-worded sentence that I should have spent more time wordsmithing it. Mea culpa. My intent was to say, "things like what apparently occurred in Atlanta should never be allowed to happen. We all know it, so let's move on to looking at the greater societal issues incidents like this serve to highlight." This is an example of a systemic problem within our community that goes beyond a single incident. I invite you to step back a bit and take a look at the attitudes reflected in the day-to-day interaction within our community. Sexist comments and jokes are common. I've been told by more than one woman that she's had to use a gender-neutral or male handle on community IRC channels and fora in order to be taken seriously and/or avoid lewd demands for topless pictures. I've never seen this sort of thing happen elsewhere. The open source community is especially bad when compared to other professional communities. As I saw someone post this weekend, "this isn't the 1960's, we aren't in a Mad Men episode." Things that haven't been acceptable in more than 50 years still occur without comment in our community. I'm trying to shine a light on the problem in an attempt to encourage us to do better.

gchaix 16y ago

I struggled with several parts of the post trying to make the wording clear. You quite correctly found two of them. I'm talking more about the cultural attitudes that are represented in the comments than I am about the actual event (since I wasn't there and don't want to wade into something I know little to nothing about). The comments, however, are indicative of what many people in our community seem to think is an acceptable attitude. That callous and insensitive attitude is what makes our community hostile to women. I'm not just talking about conferences - although the alcohol-fueled hothouse atmosphere certainly exaggerates the issue - I'm talking about the entirety of the working environment. The mail lists, fora, IRC channels, etc. where hurtful or inappropriate behavior serves as a strong disincentive for women to join or continue to participate.