5 ms·

Isn’t this the guy that is famous for being admitted to a PhD program with an exceptionally low GPA? If so, why is he the exception and why aren’t more PhD pro

by yoler 8y ago

Isn’t this the guy that is famous for being admitted to a PhD program with an exceptionally low GPA? If so, why is he the exception and why aren’t more PhD programs looking for non-traditional talent? Edit: I read his blog post. It gave me more insight. It looks possible for people with those sort of grades to be admitted even today, but they seem to need a cheerleader on the inside that will help them.

willbw 8y ago
There are a lot more people going to university these days, and grades are inflated. That's the short story. If you have to look at many many applications for a spot at a top university you are more likely to choose someone who is a "traditional" talent.
a_bonobo 8y ago
There was a small study that came out recently on biorxiv, with 29 PhD students with GREs all over the place - >GRE scores, while collected at admission, were not used or consulted for admissions decisions and comprise the full range of percentiles from 1% to 91%. We report on the 29 students recruited to the Vanderbilt IMSD from 2007-2011 who have completed the program as of summer 2017. While the data set is not large, the predictive trends between GRE and long-term graduate outcomes (publications, first author publications, time to degree, predoctoral fellowship awards, and faculty evaluations) are remarkably null and there is sufficient precision to rule out even mild relationships between GRE and these outcomes. Career outcomes are encouraging; many students are in postdocs, and the rest are in stage-appropriate career environments for such a cohort, including tenure track faculty, biotech and entrepreneurship careers. Now a GRE isn't a GPA (one's a specific test, one is your grades' average), but both are being used for university admissions, and I reckon both are not good predictors. Edit: Link: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/07/20/373225 https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/07/20/373225
- frozenport 8y ago
  There is another interpretation. That sadly, grad school has become potlicial and technical appitude doesn't matter. I have accrude a subantial number of high impact publications and can confirm this is the case. On numerous occasions I have been forced to hand over my completed work to facilitate first author publication for visiting scholars or students my Pi liked received co authorship, joint first authorship for no apparent reason. I would also like to reverse this trend.
davidgrenier 8y ago
I graduated with a Comp.Sci bachelor with a similar GPA. Spent around 10 years as a programmer in the industry and came back to get into the masters program. I was almost laughed off (a good thing) stating I would have to do another bachelor. Sold my house, got rid of all my stuff and enrolled in pure math bachelor's. Best decision of my life. I though that in my mid 30s with a lot more discipline, being able to work longer and harder would've made up for the shit grades. I'm extremely thankful to the department head for waving me off like that because it would've been a disaster. Clearly Jeff could handle himself, however I think one must really know what they're doing. I thought I'd end up doing the 3-year math program in 2... it'll turn out to be 3.5 with good grades this time around. After that I know I'll be very solid for master/phd programs.
- slig 8y ago
  Thanks for sharing, really inspiring.
- b3b0p 8y ago
  > I graduated with a Comp.Sci bachelor with a similar GPA. Spent around 10 years as a programmer in the industry and came back to get into the masters program. I was almost laughed off (a good thing) stating I would have to do another bachelor. Can you expand on this? I'm similar right now. Want to go back and get my masters. Graduated in CS about 12 years ago. Mid 30's. What do you mean about having to do another bachelor? I have not heard this before. > Sold my house, got rid of all my stuff and enrolled in pure math bachelor's. Best decision of my life. I recently just bought a condo downtown. One because I never plan to move again and rent goes up at least 3-5%/year and two because I can easily rent it out if I do end up leaving. The University of Minnesota is only a mile away from me at the moment. Mortgage is probably a little high for a grad student/TA salary considering I'm making well in to the 6 digits right now. This is my only debt and all my stuff is not much. Mostly things I can't really sell for much now or are required to work and live (computer, desk, monitor, clothes, eat, sleep). I have a couch and a TV to relax outside of work.
  - xzsknkd 8y ago
    You don't need to pursue a second undergraduate degree if you just need to fulfill certain courses for graduate admissions. Check out: https://ccaps.umn.edu/non-degreeguest-students https://ccaps.umn.edu/non-degreeguest-students See if other schools of interest have similar programs if that one isn't a good fit. See if you can take courses for credit/get research experience. Then apply for your desired graduate programs. This is a good way to get letters of recommendations from professors too.
jefferickson 8y ago
Yes, that's me. Admissions committees are looking for evidence of future success. Admitting applicants with spotty (not merely "nontraditional") backgrounds is risky -- they might be a diamond in the rough, or they might really be a weak student. And (at least departments like mine) there are far too many applicants with stellar backgrounds to justify taking that risk. At least, that's the usual argument.
- 8732332 8y ago
  Would you take a risk on someone that graduated with below a 3.0 GPA with Cs in their math/computer science courses, but went back to school, took some core CS courses, aced them, got some research experience, and then applied to PhD programs?
- justadudeama 8y ago
  What advice would you give to undergraduates that are interested in getting a Ph.D who don't have the best of grades?
  - ssalazar 8y ago
    - Work on, or help out with, a research project of a professor/established researcher in your field of interest. - Related, getting authorship (first or otherwise) for an academic publication as an undergraduate is a promising signal of future research success. - Also related, having great references from undergrad professors who are involved in research. - Connect with faculty in the PhD program you're interested in. Context: Got bad grades in undergrad courses related to my particular specialty (digital audio signal processing), but also did all of these, and was admitted to a top PhD program in my field. Also, a lot of people in my program had success with this one: - Applying for a masters in a related field or at a department that also has a PhD program that you're interested in, and having success there.
    - jefferickson 8y ago
      Yep, all this. Let me add two more points: - Own your past mistakes. They happened. Don't pretend they didn't. Figure out the underlying cause of those mistakes, and gather EVIDENCE that you've resolved that cause. (In my case, I was a LAZY undergrad. I'd never had to work in high school, and so I didn't know how to work in college. And then I got a real job, and it was either do the damn work or it'll be there tomorrow only the boss will be there in my office wondering why the hell I'm costing the company hundreds of thousands of dollars a day and why can't you just get this shit DONE already. And so when I applied for grad school the second time I had "smart but lazy" letters from my old professors, stellar GRE scores, and "smart and works hard" letters from my managers.) - APPLY WIDELY. You are at a significant disadvantage compared to other students with stronger backgrounds. Do not imagine that your passion and good intentions and maturity are enough to get you into the top programs, or even into any particular program. You're playing a lottery that's stacked against you; buy more tickets.
dirtybird04 8y ago
Link for the uninitiated: https://3dpancakes.typepad.com/ernie/2005/03/re_phd_with_low.html https://3dpancakes.typepad.com/ernie/2005/03/re_phd_with_low...

by yoler 8y ago

willbw 8y ago

There are a lot more people going to university these days, and grades are inflated. That's the short story. If you have to look at many many applications for a spot at a top university you are more likely to choose someone who is a "traditional" talent.

a_bonobo 8y ago

There was a small study that came out recently on biorxiv, with 29 PhD students with GREs all over the place - >GRE scores, while collected at admission, were not used or consulted for admissions decisions and comprise the full range of percentiles from 1% to 91%. We report on the 29 students recruited to the Vanderbilt IMSD from 2007-2011 who have completed the program as of summer 2017. While the data set is not large, the predictive trends between GRE and long-term graduate outcomes (publications, first author publications, time to degree, predoctoral fellowship awards, and faculty evaluations) are remarkably null and there is sufficient precision to rule out even mild relationships between GRE and these outcomes. Career outcomes are encouraging; many students are in postdocs, and the rest are in stage-appropriate career environments for such a cohort, including tenure track faculty, biotech and entrepreneurship careers. Now a GRE isn't a GPA (one's a specific test, one is your grades' average), but both are being used for university admissions, and I reckon both are not good predictors. Edit: Link: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/07/20/373225 https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2018/07/20/373225

frozenport 8y ago
There is another interpretation. That sadly, grad school has become potlicial and technical appitude doesn't matter. I have accrude a subantial number of high impact publications and can confirm this is the case. On numerous occasions I have been forced to hand over my completed work to facilitate first author publication for visiting scholars or students my Pi liked received co authorship, joint first authorship for no apparent reason. I would also like to reverse this trend.

davidgrenier 8y ago

I graduated with a Comp.Sci bachelor with a similar GPA. Spent around 10 years as a programmer in the industry and came back to get into the masters program. I was almost laughed off (a good thing) stating I would have to do another bachelor. Sold my house, got rid of all my stuff and enrolled in pure math bachelor's. Best decision of my life. I though that in my mid 30s with a lot more discipline, being able to work longer and harder would've made up for the shit grades. I'm extremely thankful to the department head for waving me off like that because it would've been a disaster. Clearly Jeff could handle himself, however I think one must really know what they're doing. I thought I'd end up doing the 3-year math program in 2... it'll turn out to be 3.5 with good grades this time around. After that I know I'll be very solid for master/phd programs.

slig 8y ago
Thanks for sharing, really inspiring.
b3b0p 8y ago
> I graduated with a Comp.Sci bachelor with a similar GPA. Spent around 10 years as a programmer in the industry and came back to get into the masters program. I was almost laughed off (a good thing) stating I would have to do another bachelor. Can you expand on this? I'm similar right now. Want to go back and get my masters. Graduated in CS about 12 years ago. Mid 30's. What do you mean about having to do another bachelor? I have not heard this before. > Sold my house, got rid of all my stuff and enrolled in pure math bachelor's. Best decision of my life. I recently just bought a condo downtown. One because I never plan to move again and rent goes up at least 3-5%/year and two because I can easily rent it out if I do end up leaving. The University of Minnesota is only a mile away from me at the moment. Mortgage is probably a little high for a grad student/TA salary considering I'm making well in to the 6 digits right now. This is my only debt and all my stuff is not much. Mostly things I can't really sell for much now or are required to work and live (computer, desk, monitor, clothes, eat, sleep). I have a couch and a TV to relax outside of work.
- xzsknkd 8y ago
  You don't need to pursue a second undergraduate degree if you just need to fulfill certain courses for graduate admissions. Check out: https://ccaps.umn.edu/non-degreeguest-students https://ccaps.umn.edu/non-degreeguest-students See if other schools of interest have similar programs if that one isn't a good fit. See if you can take courses for credit/get research experience. Then apply for your desired graduate programs. This is a good way to get letters of recommendations from professors too.

jefferickson 8y ago

Yes, that's me. Admissions committees are looking for evidence of future success. Admitting applicants with spotty (not merely "nontraditional") backgrounds is risky -- they might be a diamond in the rough, or they might really be a weak student. And (at least departments like mine) there are far too many applicants with stellar backgrounds to justify taking that risk. At least, that's the usual argument.

8732332 8y ago
Would you take a risk on someone that graduated with below a 3.0 GPA with Cs in their math/computer science courses, but went back to school, took some core CS courses, aced them, got some research experience, and then applied to PhD programs?
justadudeama 8y ago
What advice would you give to undergraduates that are interested in getting a Ph.D who don't have the best of grades?
- ssalazar 8y ago
  - Work on, or help out with, a research project of a professor/established researcher in your field of interest. - Related, getting authorship (first or otherwise) for an academic publication as an undergraduate is a promising signal of future research success. - Also related, having great references from undergrad professors who are involved in research. - Connect with faculty in the PhD program you're interested in. Context: Got bad grades in undergrad courses related to my particular specialty (digital audio signal processing), but also did all of these, and was admitted to a top PhD program in my field. Also, a lot of people in my program had success with this one: - Applying for a masters in a related field or at a department that also has a PhD program that you're interested in, and having success there.
  - jefferickson 8y ago
    Yep, all this. Let me add two more points: - Own your past mistakes. They happened. Don't pretend they didn't. Figure out the underlying cause of those mistakes, and gather EVIDENCE that you've resolved that cause. (In my case, I was a LAZY undergrad. I'd never had to work in high school, and so I didn't know how to work in college. And then I got a real job, and it was either do the damn work or it'll be there tomorrow only the boss will be there in my office wondering why the hell I'm costing the company hundreds of thousands of dollars a day and why can't you just get this shit DONE already. And so when I applied for grad school the second time I had "smart but lazy" letters from my old professors, stellar GRE scores, and "smart and works hard" letters from my managers.) - APPLY WIDELY. You are at a significant disadvantage compared to other students with stronger backgrounds. Do not imagine that your passion and good intentions and maturity are enough to get you into the top programs, or even into any particular program. You're playing a lottery that's stacked against you; buy more tickets.

dirtybird04 8y ago

Link for the uninitiated: https://3dpancakes.typepad.com/ernie/2005/03/re_phd_with_low.html https://3dpancakes.typepad.com/ernie/2005/03/re_phd_with_low...