5 ms·

Open Source Misogyny

33 points by kreneskyp 16y ago

tptacek 16y ago
The problem here isn't misogyny. The problem is the impact that the unreality of the Internet has on people's psychology, and what happens when Internet psychology crashes into cold, hard reality. There are two events being "discussed" here: the alleged incident of sexual battery at ApacheCon, and the Internet's reaction to the report of the incident. Both are, to my eyes, shot through with Internet-thinking. I can give you a pie-eyed exegesis of how the rapid-fire 140-character "we're all Interfriends" no-harm no-foul if - it's - easy - to - and - nobody - catches - fire - it - must - be - ok mentality might have led to some idiot allegedly assaulting a peer at a conference, but you can probably see those arguments coming a mile away. But this article isn't mostly about the actual incident; it's motivated more by how the Internet responded to the incident. And the Internet handled this incident the same way the Internet handles everything else: the same way it handles an iPhone bug. So you've got people talking about "innocent until proven guilty full stop" (note: you are not in the real world trustworthy until proven untrustworthy), and other people saying "she wasn't actually injured so what's the big deal" (note: of the places I would not want to be locked up for sexual battery, Georgia tops the list). But they're not really talking about gender politics. They're nerds, trying to fit a complicated event into their mental models, which models demand consistency and transparency and rigidity. It's just difficult for the nerdal cortex to process the idea that rather than laying out an irrefutable case in front of a court of law, the victim of sexual aggression can use other tools available to them to retaliate, deter future offenders, and reestablish a zone of control over themselves. You saw exactly the same mentality over the Reiser trial. "How can you be convicted of murder on circumstantial evidence?!" (answer: very easily). "Juries just don't understand Aspergers!" "His best friend is a serial killer!" The nerdal cortex tries to absorb these stimuli and turn it into a graph structure that can be traversed for answers, but no matter what the model is, at the end of the day, Reiser led the police to the body and confessed to the crime. Reality is inescapable, even when the graph isn't fully connected. I wouldn't read this most recent story as an example of how geeks discriminate against women (though: they do), but I would look at it as another cautionary tale about how reliable the conventional wisdom of geekery is.
- rue 16y ago
  > The problem is the impact that the unreality of the Internet has on people's psychology, and what happens when Internet psychology crashes into cold, hard reality. I am not sure you can call it unreality anymore, except maybe for people above a certain age. > So you've got people talking about "innocent until proven guilty full stop" […], and other people saying "she wasn't actually injured so what's the big deal" I think you misrepresent the ratios of "some people" (and omitting all the e-hug responses). Unfortunately this played out as I thought. "Innocent until proven guilty" is brought up because of the name and it will continue to be a distraction. Well, perhaps there shall be a trite apology come Monday.
- jdp23 16y ago
  > The problem here isn't misogyny. Really? I'm seeing plenty of misogyny, along with other problems.
- ahoyhere 16y ago
  A 1000 times yes. But, with one proviso: It is ethical, right, and good to cut off all ties with people who actually do violate social rules and hurt others. It's better for everyone, including the person who did the deed, because they will learn fast that it is unacceptable. There should, as the original post says, be no exceptions for skill or usefulness. In my time, I've entirely cut off people who I've learned have hit or abused others in any way. I don't care if it's a man sticking his hand in a woman's pants or a guy hitting his boyfriend or a woman verbally abusing her man, or any parent mistreating their child. (All humans, of every gender, age and background, do evil and hurt each other equally.) I've taken a lot of heat for this, and lost opportunities for money & fame, but you know what? I can sleep easy. I'm not losing my own sense of what's right by drips and drabs of attrition. That said, you can't make it top-down. It'll never work. There's no way to dictate that others do this, no community "rules" that will work, unless people are willing to look hard at themselves and ask, "Is this the kind of behavior I want to condone? Do I want to even be in the same room with a person who'd act like that?"
autarch 16y ago
This is an interesting blog post, but I have to nitpick at a couple points. First, the author says "Touching someone without their consent is assault." I hope that's just a not-so-well-thought-out sentence. What was described in the [original blog post http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/418 http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/418] that started this firestorm went well beyond "touching". I hope we don't end up in a place where just touching someone (like a hand on someone's shoulder) is actually bad. That said, I really dislike even casual touch from anyone but people I'm very close too, so I can sympathize with people not liking that, but that's not the same as assault. I think there's other ways to handle things that make us uncomfortable without criminalizing them. Second, I'm not sure if the author is implying in the final paragraph that sexual assault is one of the main reasons the male-female ratio at most tech conferences is so off. He just says it's "due to the behavior of us, the straight white male majority in the open source community". That problem behavior often falls far short of sexual assault, but the behavior is still problematic ("how to X like a porn star" presentations, anyone?). I suspect that there are also many other reasons that women don't go to conferences. I would love for someone to do some research on what is keeping women away so that we could make these conferences more attractive to everyone.
- araneae 16y ago
  "I'm not sure if the author is implying in the final paragraph that sexual assault is one of the main reasons the male-female ratio at most tech conferences is so off." I have a female friend that regularly attends tech conferences, and she said that what surprised her about the blog post is not only that it happened at a tech conference, but that it had happened before. She said that she generally feels pretty safe at tech conferences and that people have always been very respectful of her. That said, she's a sample size of one. But I'm not sure a sample size of two is enough to conclude it's a pervasive problem at conferences that really needs to be dealt with on a population level.
  - tptacek 16y ago
    Without offering any evidence to support this, I agree that it feels like this should be a rare event, if only because sexually assaulting someone attending a conference with friends is a great way to get your teeth knocked out, and that's a story I haven't heard before.
araneae 16y ago
"when well-executed these trainings really do work" There's absolutely no evidence that "sensitivity training" or "anger management" or any number of these programs designed to protect companies from liability have any sort of effect on anyone. I actually expect that fear of being publicly named on someone's blog will be more effective. Not saying I approve; just that it has more chance of succeeding than any of those programs, well-done or not.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
featherface 16y ago
Anywhere young people, booze, and partying mix, this sort of thing happens, so I don't see why the author sees it as a sign the OSS community, in particular, is "the epitome of a hostile misogynistic work environment". Further, to publicly name the guy over this seems harsh. I don't really see what he did as a big deal. I've probably done similar things many times, as well as having similar done to me. If you're drinking with members of the opposite sex, have some rapport, kidding around, etc., then slapping a butt, putting a hand on a thigh, etc., is usually cool. Why the need to tell the entire world, probably ruining the dude's career?
- sofuture 16y ago
  Was going to vote you up for your first paragraph...
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
- tptacek 16y ago
  She said no, then he touched her. Your opinion of the seriousness of that is irrelevant; the action we're discussing is, depending on subtle icky details, either a serious misdemeanor or a felony. In no interpretation of the story we have is it not a crime --- one with a name, and everything.
- bigiain 16y ago
  Seriously? Are you reading the same blog post I am? "He grabbed me, pulled me in to him, and kissed me. I tried to push him off, and told him I wasn’t interested (I may have been less eloquent, but I don’t think I was less clear). He responded by jamming his hand into my underwear and fumbling." If you've "done similar things many times" you _are_ part of the problem, and are prabaly lucky not to be in jail for it.
  - featherface 16y ago
    I don't know what "jamming his hand into my underwear and fumbling" even means - did he penetrate her with three fingers right through her underwear (was she not wearing pants/skirt?), or was he playing with an exposed thong T-bar, or something else? By something "similar" I mean I've been "rejected" by girls before, and not immediately raised my hands in submission and backed off. E.g., talking to a girl, tried to make out with her, and she said no, depending on what I thought, I might, say, keep a hand on her thigh, or playing with her pantie line. Not a perfect match, but I could definitely see someone wanting to make a big deal twisting that into something along the lines described here. I could be wrong, and this guy could have committed the very worst interpretation of what the author described. But I doubt it, because the article seems like it's written for maximum effect.
jacoblyles 16y ago
The post conflates several issues and I think it is weaker for it. I doubt misogyny is behind the extreme gender ratios in the tech world, and I doubt public self-flagellation of males would encourage more females to participate in tech.
TomOfTTB 16y ago
This is just dumb. I'll go down his suggestions to point out why... - We need to have codes of conduct in our projects and conferences that specifically ban abusive and sexist behavior: I don't see how a "Code of Conduct" is going to be more compelling than the law. Nor do I believe the type of person who would stick his hand down a girls pants or cheer someone like that on is going to adhere to a code of conduct no matter what. - Trainings around diversity and sexual harassment: Sexual Harassment trainings are done so employees will be able to recognize sexual harassment. Does anyone think there's an employee out there who wouldn't consider sticking your hand down a girl's pants sexual harassment? Moreover the two people didn't work for the same company anyway so it wasn't sexual harassment as much as it was a...y'know... felony. - Keep speaking out: As the post points out all "speaking out" did was cause this woman to be further abused. What she should (and apparently did do) is speak to the police. People keep trying to make this into a macro issue and it's not. There might very well be misogyny in the tech industry but this is no more a sign of it than a rapist would be a sign of misogyny in a particular town.
- semanticist 16y ago
  A community-created code of conduct is different from and can be more effective than standard law because it's coming from the community. Rather than being an abstract decision taken by 'other people' to make certain actions unwelcome, it's a concrete decision taken by 'our people'. Social enforcement is probably a more effective deterrent than legal enforcement.
- gchaix 16y ago
  TomfTTB, I think you missed some of my points in the post. Let's see if I can clarify: 1) Codes of conduct - I'm talking about community covenants that come from the community and that have real teeth enforced by the community. This is not about whether an action is illegal and enforceable in court, it's about a community setting standards of behavior for its members and taking real action against people who violate them. I can think of numerous unethical or abusive actions that, while not illegal, could (and should) be included in a community code of conduct as worthy of censure. 2) Training - I'm not talking about some quick and shallow two hour seminar with a cheezy twenty minute "this is sexual harassment" video. Those are nearly worthless. I'm talking about the much longer intensive trainings offered for and by domestic violence/sexual assault service agencies. Trainings where we learn to see the culture of oppression and violence through the eyes of the people who have survived it. We're talking about changing a culture and its underlying frame of reference, not simply pointing at something and saying, "don't do that, it's bad." 3) Speaking out - my point was that we need to be better at speaking out for exactly the reason you described. We need to do more than just shout incoherently into the void. We need to be more deliberate regarding how we speak out. A quiet, one-on-one "dude, you can't say crap like that" to a peer or an "I'm sorry, but our community does not allow its members to behave in that manner. Please leave now," is more valuable and effective than a thousand blog comments. It's not a question of whether we speak out, but how we speak out. Lastly, I'm not trying to make this into a "micro issue". I'm pointing out that the tech community is particularly hostile to women. Compared with the other communities I've worked with (primarily in the non-profit and education sectors), the tech community is shockingly bad.
Tichy 16y ago
I don't think this has anything to do with the open source community at all. Men will fancy women and be stupid about it in all sorts of groups and environments.
meelash 16y ago
I have an honest question to ask, since the number of comments hasn't exploded here, I hope some thoughtful people can see it and answer. Please don't attack me for anything I may be implicitly saying; this is honestly something I'm confused about regarding the culture in which this event took place, and from which I am an outsider. A number of people have taken great pains to emphasize that the behavior of the lady involved was not justification for an unwanted advance and that men should all understand this. Now I understand 100% that if she clearly and explicitly rejected his kiss advance, it was obviously wrong to go further (all of this is theoretical/alleged but ignore that for a moment). Let's consider just the kissing portion and nothing beyond that. Now, isn't sitting on people's laps and flirting exactly inviting this kind of advance? I mean isn't that exactly the point of those behaviors? To excite the passion of people it's being done to and who are watching? It's very strange for people to vehemently deny this. It's like if I was a biologist of another race observing human kind, what would I identify through observation as the beginning steps in the mating ritual? So why is an impression being given that that kind of behavior is "having fun" and has nothing to do with sex, and trying to attract the opposite sex? Again, let me state- I don't drink, I don't go to parties like this, I've never been to a bar or a club or a girl's hotel room. So please don't assume I know the answer and I'm trying to imply the answer through these questions. I really just don't understand how you can hold this idealistic view of mankind that a member of one sex should enflame the passion of the opposite sex, through activities and clothing with deliberate, intentional sexual overtones and then expect people to overcome their natural, biological response to that kind of show. Comments, please?
- lhnn 16y ago
  As someone who does go to parties, if some girl were sitting in laps and laying across people, etc., she should not be surprised if a guy makes a move. Now, the guy should have known she was probably not specifically interested in him, since she was sitting in EVERYONE'S lap (this is analogous to other things a man or woman can do with everybody...) And, as you mentioned, he had no right or logical reason to make the move down south. If someone did that at a party I was at to one of my female friends, he'd get socked in the face and thrown on the concrete. --- In short, you're absolutely right, IMO.
- 16y ago
iuguy 16y ago
The situation was more a product of booze, partying and potentially socially awkward people celebrating an event together as it was about an Open Source issue. This type of stuff happens elsewhere outside of Open Source. To suggest that somehow the Open Source community should rise above it more than say, the accountancy industry is a bit silly at best. The measures put forward by the author, such as codes of conduct and training sound like the type of thing that might work in a company but are just not going to work at a conference, let alone one with lots of people present, let alone at a party peripheral to a conference. Two people were very badly affected by the whole episode, the girl and the guy. I'd like to see people let these two sort their issues out with the authorities while we all move on, but something tells me that people are going to try and milk this as long as they can. Maybe I'm just incredibly cynical, but I get the impression that not all that I've read on this matter is as much about the girl or the guy, but more about generating noise to get links. I'm not suggesting that TFA has or hasn't done this, more that I'm an extremely cynical person.
- imajes 16y ago
  Perhaps it's because our community is more interested in self-improvement? The argument that, "oh, this happens elsewhere, so we shouldn't give it any special attention" is moot because we're supposed to be smarter, more open and more enlightened than the average. We should all be affected when women can't go to a conference now without feeling that they can't act normally without fear of (at best) having to fend off unwanted advances, or worse.
rue 16y ago
Formulating for terseness, I think the responsibilities fall as follows: 1. The community to ensure that such things do not happen[1]; and 2. The police to ensure that a specific person does not do such things. Dunno how useful the proposals are. At first glance, they strike me as things that only involve the people who already are not a problem. [1] Inasmuch we can. In the near-to-mid future, I think it must be expected that some number of predators still exist.
Udo 16y ago
No amount of "sensitivity training" and related measures will change the behavior of psychopaths. The reason big companies have harassment seminars and rules of conduct is not to prevent this from happening, they need this to cover their asses legally when it does happen, and if at all possible to send a message to their employees that they better not be covering this shit up when the time comes. Converting the open source community (or any community for that matter) into a paranoid kindergarten isn't gonna do anything besides make people miserable. Almost everyone already knows that this kind of behavior is not within the normal range of human interaction, no training necessary. And I suspect those who do not know this to begin with cannot be trained to reliably behave acceptably and normally, no matter how much effort is put into this. Psychopaths don't need to be educated, they need to stay at home and take their meds. If all that holds a guy back from acting like a retarded, violent asshole is a bunch of rigid rules and the threat of public shame, his true self will come out eventually no matter how much you invested in sensitivity training. Personality disorders cannot be treated with awareness campaigns. It's not like these people have somehow just missed the memo on how not to mistreat others and are then magically socialized once that information has been provided. On a side note, I'm sick of (and kind of surprised by) this notion that all men are supposed to be like this by default and just have to restrain themselves all the time so as not to degenerate into drooling monkeys who rape everything in sight. And it's not just women putting this theory out there, I've seen quite a lot of male creeps on LifeJournal threads "confessing" to this kind of personality over the last few days. PSA: if you're like this, it isn't because you're a man. It's because you're sick and should consult professional help.

33 points by kreneskyp 16y ago

The problem here isn't misogyny. The problem is the impact that the unreality of the Internet has on people's psychology, and what happens when Internet psychology crashes into cold, hard reality. There are two events being "discussed" here: the alleged incident of sexual battery at ApacheCon, and the Internet's reaction to the report of the incident. Both are, to my eyes, shot through with Internet-thinking. I can give you a pie-eyed exegesis of how the rapid-fire 140-character "we're all Interfriends" no-harm no-foul if - it's - easy - to - and - nobody - catches - fire - it - must - be - ok mentality might have led to some idiot allegedly assaulting a peer at a conference, but you can probably see those arguments coming a mile away. But this article isn't mostly about the actual incident; it's motivated more by how the Internet responded to the incident. And the Internet handled this incident the same way the Internet handles everything else: the same way it handles an iPhone bug. So you've got people talking about "innocent until proven guilty full stop" (note: you are not in the real world trustworthy until proven untrustworthy), and other people saying "she wasn't actually injured so what's the big deal" (note: of the places I would not want to be locked up for sexual battery, Georgia tops the list). But they're not really talking about gender politics. They're nerds, trying to fit a complicated event into their mental models, which models demand consistency and transparency and rigidity. It's just difficult for the nerdal cortex to process the idea that rather than laying out an irrefutable case in front of a court of law, the victim of sexual aggression can use other tools available to them to retaliate, deter future offenders, and reestablish a zone of control over themselves. You saw exactly the same mentality over the Reiser trial. "How can you be convicted of murder on circumstantial evidence?!" (answer: very easily). "Juries just don't understand Aspergers!" "His best friend is a serial killer!" The nerdal cortex tries to absorb these stimuli and turn it into a graph structure that can be traversed for answers, but no matter what the model is, at the end of the day, Reiser led the police to the body and confessed to the crime. Reality is inescapable, even when the graph isn't fully connected. I wouldn't read this most recent story as an example of how geeks discriminate against women (though: they do), but I would look at it as another cautionary tale about how reliable the conventional wisdom of geekery is.

rue 16y ago
> The problem is the impact that the unreality of the Internet has on people's psychology, and what happens when Internet psychology crashes into cold, hard reality. I am not sure you can call it unreality anymore, except maybe for people above a certain age. > So you've got people talking about "innocent until proven guilty full stop" […], and other people saying "she wasn't actually injured so what's the big deal" I think you misrepresent the ratios of "some people" (and omitting all the e-hug responses). Unfortunately this played out as I thought. "Innocent until proven guilty" is brought up because of the name and it will continue to be a distraction. Well, perhaps there shall be a trite apology come Monday.
jdp23 16y ago
> The problem here isn't misogyny. Really? I'm seeing plenty of misogyny, along with other problems.
ahoyhere 16y ago
A 1000 times yes. But, with one proviso: It is ethical, right, and good to cut off all ties with people who actually do violate social rules and hurt others. It's better for everyone, including the person who did the deed, because they will learn fast that it is unacceptable. There should, as the original post says, be no exceptions for skill or usefulness. In my time, I've entirely cut off people who I've learned have hit or abused others in any way. I don't care if it's a man sticking his hand in a woman's pants or a guy hitting his boyfriend or a woman verbally abusing her man, or any parent mistreating their child. (All humans, of every gender, age and background, do evil and hurt each other equally.) I've taken a lot of heat for this, and lost opportunities for money & fame, but you know what? I can sleep easy. I'm not losing my own sense of what's right by drips and drabs of attrition. That said, you can't make it top-down. It'll never work. There's no way to dictate that others do this, no community "rules" that will work, unless people are willing to look hard at themselves and ask, "Is this the kind of behavior I want to condone? Do I want to even be in the same room with a person who'd act like that?"

autarch 16y ago

This is an interesting blog post, but I have to nitpick at a couple points. First, the author says "Touching someone without their consent is assault." I hope that's just a not-so-well-thought-out sentence. What was described in the [original blog post http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/418 http://blog.nerdchic.net/archives/418] that started this firestorm went well beyond "touching". I hope we don't end up in a place where just touching someone (like a hand on someone's shoulder) is actually bad. That said, I really dislike even casual touch from anyone but people I'm very close too, so I can sympathize with people not liking that, but that's not the same as assault. I think there's other ways to handle things that make us uncomfortable without criminalizing them. Second, I'm not sure if the author is implying in the final paragraph that sexual assault is one of the main reasons the male-female ratio at most tech conferences is so off. He just says it's "due to the behavior of us, the straight white male majority in the open source community". That problem behavior often falls far short of sexual assault, but the behavior is still problematic ("how to X like a porn star" presentations, anyone?). I suspect that there are also many other reasons that women don't go to conferences. I would love for someone to do some research on what is keeping women away so that we could make these conferences more attractive to everyone.

araneae 16y ago
"I'm not sure if the author is implying in the final paragraph that sexual assault is one of the main reasons the male-female ratio at most tech conferences is so off." I have a female friend that regularly attends tech conferences, and she said that what surprised her about the blog post is not only that it happened at a tech conference, but that it had happened before. She said that she generally feels pretty safe at tech conferences and that people have always been very respectful of her. That said, she's a sample size of one. But I'm not sure a sample size of two is enough to conclude it's a pervasive problem at conferences that really needs to be dealt with on a population level.
- tptacek 16y ago
  Without offering any evidence to support this, I agree that it feels like this should be a rare event, if only because sexually assaulting someone attending a conference with friends is a great way to get your teeth knocked out, and that's a story I haven't heard before.

araneae 16y ago

"when well-executed these trainings really do work" There's absolutely no evidence that "sensitivity training" or "anger management" or any number of these programs designed to protect companies from liability have any sort of effect on anyone. I actually expect that fear of being publicly named on someone's blog will be more effective. Not saying I approve; just that it has more chance of succeeding than any of those programs, well-done or not.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

featherface 16y ago

Anywhere young people, booze, and partying mix, this sort of thing happens, so I don't see why the author sees it as a sign the OSS community, in particular, is "the epitome of a hostile misogynistic work environment". Further, to publicly name the guy over this seems harsh. I don't really see what he did as a big deal. I've probably done similar things many times, as well as having similar done to me. If you're drinking with members of the opposite sex, have some rapport, kidding around, etc., then slapping a butt, putting a hand on a thigh, etc., is usually cool. Why the need to tell the entire world, probably ruining the dude's career?

sofuture 16y ago
Was going to vote you up for your first paragraph...
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
tptacek 16y ago
She said no, then he touched her. Your opinion of the seriousness of that is irrelevant; the action we're discussing is, depending on subtle icky details, either a serious misdemeanor or a felony. In no interpretation of the story we have is it not a crime --- one with a name, and everything.
bigiain 16y ago
Seriously? Are you reading the same blog post I am? "He grabbed me, pulled me in to him, and kissed me. I tried to push him off, and told him I wasn’t interested (I may have been less eloquent, but I don’t think I was less clear). He responded by jamming his hand into my underwear and fumbling." If you've "done similar things many times" you _are_ part of the problem, and are prabaly lucky not to be in jail for it.
- featherface 16y ago
  I don't know what "jamming his hand into my underwear and fumbling" even means - did he penetrate her with three fingers right through her underwear (was she not wearing pants/skirt?), or was he playing with an exposed thong T-bar, or something else? By something "similar" I mean I've been "rejected" by girls before, and not immediately raised my hands in submission and backed off. E.g., talking to a girl, tried to make out with her, and she said no, depending on what I thought, I might, say, keep a hand on her thigh, or playing with her pantie line. Not a perfect match, but I could definitely see someone wanting to make a big deal twisting that into something along the lines described here. I could be wrong, and this guy could have committed the very worst interpretation of what the author described. But I doubt it, because the article seems like it's written for maximum effect.

jacoblyles 16y ago

The post conflates several issues and I think it is weaker for it. I doubt misogyny is behind the extreme gender ratios in the tech world, and I doubt public self-flagellation of males would encourage more females to participate in tech.

TomOfTTB 16y ago

This is just dumb. I'll go down his suggestions to point out why... - We need to have codes of conduct in our projects and conferences that specifically ban abusive and sexist behavior: I don't see how a "Code of Conduct" is going to be more compelling than the law. Nor do I believe the type of person who would stick his hand down a girls pants or cheer someone like that on is going to adhere to a code of conduct no matter what. - Trainings around diversity and sexual harassment: Sexual Harassment trainings are done so employees will be able to recognize sexual harassment. Does anyone think there's an employee out there who wouldn't consider sticking your hand down a girl's pants sexual harassment? Moreover the two people didn't work for the same company anyway so it wasn't sexual harassment as much as it was a...y'know... felony. - Keep speaking out: As the post points out all "speaking out" did was cause this woman to be further abused. What she should (and apparently did do) is speak to the police. People keep trying to make this into a macro issue and it's not. There might very well be misogyny in the tech industry but this is no more a sign of it than a rapist would be a sign of misogyny in a particular town.

semanticist 16y ago
A community-created code of conduct is different from and can be more effective than standard law because it's coming from the community. Rather than being an abstract decision taken by 'other people' to make certain actions unwelcome, it's a concrete decision taken by 'our people'. Social enforcement is probably a more effective deterrent than legal enforcement.
gchaix 16y ago
TomfTTB, I think you missed some of my points in the post. Let's see if I can clarify: 1) Codes of conduct - I'm talking about community covenants that come from the community and that have real teeth enforced by the community. This is not about whether an action is illegal and enforceable in court, it's about a community setting standards of behavior for its members and taking real action against people who violate them. I can think of numerous unethical or abusive actions that, while not illegal, could (and should) be included in a community code of conduct as worthy of censure. 2) Training - I'm not talking about some quick and shallow two hour seminar with a cheezy twenty minute "this is sexual harassment" video. Those are nearly worthless. I'm talking about the much longer intensive trainings offered for and by domestic violence/sexual assault service agencies. Trainings where we learn to see the culture of oppression and violence through the eyes of the people who have survived it. We're talking about changing a culture and its underlying frame of reference, not simply pointing at something and saying, "don't do that, it's bad." 3) Speaking out - my point was that we need to be better at speaking out for exactly the reason you described. We need to do more than just shout incoherently into the void. We need to be more deliberate regarding how we speak out. A quiet, one-on-one "dude, you can't say crap like that" to a peer or an "I'm sorry, but our community does not allow its members to behave in that manner. Please leave now," is more valuable and effective than a thousand blog comments. It's not a question of whether we speak out, but how we speak out. Lastly, I'm not trying to make this into a "micro issue". I'm pointing out that the tech community is particularly hostile to women. Compared with the other communities I've worked with (primarily in the non-profit and education sectors), the tech community is shockingly bad.

Tichy 16y ago

I don't think this has anything to do with the open source community at all. Men will fancy women and be stupid about it in all sorts of groups and environments.

meelash 16y ago

I have an honest question to ask, since the number of comments hasn't exploded here, I hope some thoughtful people can see it and answer. Please don't attack me for anything I may be implicitly saying; this is honestly something I'm confused about regarding the culture in which this event took place, and from which I am an outsider. A number of people have taken great pains to emphasize that the behavior of the lady involved was not justification for an unwanted advance and that men should all understand this. Now I understand 100% that if she clearly and explicitly rejected his kiss advance, it was obviously wrong to go further (all of this is theoretical/alleged but ignore that for a moment). Let's consider just the kissing portion and nothing beyond that. Now, isn't sitting on people's laps and flirting exactly inviting this kind of advance? I mean isn't that exactly the point of those behaviors? To excite the passion of people it's being done to and who are watching? It's very strange for people to vehemently deny this. It's like if I was a biologist of another race observing human kind, what would I identify through observation as the beginning steps in the mating ritual? So why is an impression being given that that kind of behavior is "having fun" and has nothing to do with sex, and trying to attract the opposite sex? Again, let me state- I don't drink, I don't go to parties like this, I've never been to a bar or a club or a girl's hotel room. So please don't assume I know the answer and I'm trying to imply the answer through these questions. I really just don't understand how you can hold this idealistic view of mankind that a member of one sex should enflame the passion of the opposite sex, through activities and clothing with deliberate, intentional sexual overtones and then expect people to overcome their natural, biological response to that kind of show. Comments, please?

lhnn 16y ago
As someone who does go to parties, if some girl were sitting in laps and laying across people, etc., she should not be surprised if a guy makes a move. Now, the guy should have known she was probably not specifically interested in him, since she was sitting in EVERYONE'S lap (this is analogous to other things a man or woman can do with everybody...) And, as you mentioned, he had no right or logical reason to make the move down south. If someone did that at a party I was at to one of my female friends, he'd get socked in the face and thrown on the concrete. --- In short, you're absolutely right, IMO.
16y ago

iuguy 16y ago

The situation was more a product of booze, partying and potentially socially awkward people celebrating an event together as it was about an Open Source issue. This type of stuff happens elsewhere outside of Open Source. To suggest that somehow the Open Source community should rise above it more than say, the accountancy industry is a bit silly at best. The measures put forward by the author, such as codes of conduct and training sound like the type of thing that might work in a company but are just not going to work at a conference, let alone one with lots of people present, let alone at a party peripheral to a conference. Two people were very badly affected by the whole episode, the girl and the guy. I'd like to see people let these two sort their issues out with the authorities while we all move on, but something tells me that people are going to try and milk this as long as they can. Maybe I'm just incredibly cynical, but I get the impression that not all that I've read on this matter is as much about the girl or the guy, but more about generating noise to get links. I'm not suggesting that TFA has or hasn't done this, more that I'm an extremely cynical person.

imajes 16y ago
Perhaps it's because our community is more interested in self-improvement? The argument that, "oh, this happens elsewhere, so we shouldn't give it any special attention" is moot because we're supposed to be smarter, more open and more enlightened than the average. We should all be affected when women can't go to a conference now without feeling that they can't act normally without fear of (at best) having to fend off unwanted advances, or worse.

rue 16y ago

Formulating for terseness, I think the responsibilities fall as follows: 1. The community to ensure that such things do not happen[1]; and 2. The police to ensure that a specific person does not do such things. Dunno how useful the proposals are. At first glance, they strike me as things that only involve the people who already are not a problem. [1] Inasmuch we can. In the near-to-mid future, I think it must be expected that some number of predators still exist.

Udo 16y ago

No amount of "sensitivity training" and related measures will change the behavior of psychopaths. The reason big companies have harassment seminars and rules of conduct is not to prevent this from happening, they need this to cover their asses legally when it does happen, and if at all possible to send a message to their employees that they better not be covering this shit up when the time comes. Converting the open source community (or any community for that matter) into a paranoid kindergarten isn't gonna do anything besides make people miserable. Almost everyone already knows that this kind of behavior is not within the normal range of human interaction, no training necessary. And I suspect those who do not know this to begin with cannot be trained to reliably behave acceptably and normally, no matter how much effort is put into this. Psychopaths don't need to be educated, they need to stay at home and take their meds. If all that holds a guy back from acting like a retarded, violent asshole is a bunch of rigid rules and the threat of public shame, his true self will come out eventually no matter how much you invested in sensitivity training. Personality disorders cannot be treated with awareness campaigns. It's not like these people have somehow just missed the memo on how not to mistreat others and are then magically socialized once that information has been provided. On a side note, I'm sick of (and kind of surprised by) this notion that all men are supposed to be like this by default and just have to restrain themselves all the time so as not to degenerate into drooling monkeys who rape everything in sight. And it's not just women putting this theory out there, I've seen quite a lot of male creeps on LifeJournal threads "confessing" to this kind of personality over the last few days. PSA: if you're like this, it isn't because you're a man. It's because you're sick and should consult professional help.