3 ms·

It might be helpful to study the history of the Manhattan project then, as well as its aftermath for those involved. You’d find your monsters (Edward Teller), t

It might be helpful to study the history of the Manhattan project then, as well as its aftermath for those involved. You’d find your monsters (Edward Teller), the man who despite believing in the necessity and inevitability of it all, took his own life (Oppenheimer), as well as those who initiated it, and regretted it only with the value of hindsight (Einstein). You’d learn about the range of justifications, reasons, and personalities involved instead of painting them as monsters. Most of all it can help to contextualize these actions in the history of those who did similar things, and those who refused. If your choices are not “murder children” or “have a lovely glass of dry sherry,” but rather “murder children or “have your children murdered” it can make the choice more difficult, and less likely to attract sociopaths.

cam_l 8y ago
Oh, thanks, had momentarily forgotten Oppenheimer(!?) ..that is about as strong an act of atonement one could make. I have actually read a lot about it (though it may not seem that way), along with the justifications and reasons etc. I believe people have a tendency to act in their day to day without ever confronting their own complicit cruelty. Division of labour and all. The difficult choice would have been to face the reality and opt out in that situation, as Rotblat did. The truth of the matter though was more of "murder children" or "someday the possibility of somehow your children getting murdered and also have a glass of dry sherry". I also never said they were monsters, that mischaracterises everything i said about the banality of it. What i said was i find it easy to believe the kind of person capable of working on cluster bombs or toy land mines would not have an issue with killing children. Whatever fucked up justification they used to live with the rest of their work would function just fine to also include future children. Despite all the years between Vietnam and Laos and Afghanistan and now, mines are still being designed made and planted. Yes. They definitely know now. Also, despite the facts that you mentioned, despite the hindsight of doubt in the necessity of the dropping of the bombs, a lot of people still defend it to the hilt. Still need for it to have been justifiable beyond any evidence to the contrary.
- toufiqbarhamov 8y ago
  As to the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, I take the view that the former was justified, and the latter was probably not. There is every reason to believe that Japan was preparing to fight on the home islands the way they had everywhere else; to the hilt, with little quarter given. Hiroshima while horrendous, was not terribly different from the firebombings of cities like Dresden and Tokyo. There’s no question that in the absence of an atomic bomb, conventional weapons would still have been deployed, and I suspect far more widely and with death tolls near or in excess of seven digit figures. So Hiroshima made sense. Then we really didn’t give them enough time to process the enormity of what had happened and surrender. They might not have, in which case Nagasaki was an option, but there are enough questions as to their full understanding of the events in Hiroshima that Nagasaki was premature, and possibly unnecessary. At the end of the day the world has been subjected to the second global conflict started by Germany’s desire to conquer Europe in a handful of decades. The appetite for a long slog to inevitable victory over a mountain of allied and Japanese corpses wasn’t there, and I don’t blame them,
  - cam_l 8y ago
    Sure, Hiroshima was no worse than Dresden or Tokyo. I respectfully disagree that it was justified, I take the view all three are war crimes. I fully understand that a lot of people believe Hiroshima was necessary. And at the time I am sure a lot of the people involved believed it (not arguing this). But this was kind of my point. And you pretty much say as much. They were happy to sacrifice a hundred thousand innocents for the benefit of reducing the hard slog. We know now the Japanese forces were close to spent (relatively speaking). We know now they had offered conditional terms to the soviets. It is arguable that the US, in communications with the soviets, also knew the soviets were preparing to attack Japan, knew of Japans lack of offensive capability, but were concerned that the terms of surrender may end in a carve up of japan with the soviets. This was a careful and premeditated attack to further american interests for the post war, rather than a do or die fight for survival. Even with hindsight, (as in, if you knew then what you know now) people are loathe to admit it may not have been the correct course of action. Thing is, even when we know what we know now, and with the benefit of being someone without 'skin in the game', mentally, most people are with Thanos on these things. Somehow when faced with the scale of events people lose their shit, are unable to make morally defensible decisions. How about approaching it from an individual point of view and scaling up from there, what if a person burned someone alive because they believed it would deter some other person from invading their home? And the reason I brought it up, it is a well known story where the views of the designers, the victims, the proponents are all well known. Only one of them quit during the project, they all knew what they were doing. They knew it would kill children. Some of them cared, not enough to stop doing it. No idea who designed the cluster bombs. The only other well known weapons designer who has brought as much havoc I could think of is Kalashnikov, but that case is less certain. The cluster bombs, the atomic bomb, they were designed to kill indiscriminately. They knew it.
yourapostasy 8y ago
> ...the man who despite believing in the necessity and inevitability of it all, took his own life (Oppenheimer),... J. Robert Oppenheimer passed away from complications of throat cancer. It was Katherine "Toni" Oppenheimer Silber his daughter, who took her own life. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Robert_Oppenheimer#Final_years_and_death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Robert_Oppenheimer#Final_ye...
- toufiqbarhamov 8y ago
  Wow... I’m truly shocked that I’ve had such a strange misconception about how Oppenheimer died for decades! Thanks for clearing that up, I stand very much corrected.

cam_l 8y ago

Oh, thanks, had momentarily forgotten Oppenheimer(!?) ..that is about as strong an act of atonement one could make. I have actually read a lot about it (though it may not seem that way), along with the justifications and reasons etc. I believe people have a tendency to act in their day to day without ever confronting their own complicit cruelty. Division of labour and all. The difficult choice would have been to face the reality and opt out in that situation, as Rotblat did. The truth of the matter though was more of "murder children" or "someday the possibility of somehow your children getting murdered and also have a glass of dry sherry". I also never said they were monsters, that mischaracterises everything i said about the banality of it. What i said was i find it easy to believe the kind of person capable of working on cluster bombs or toy land mines would not have an issue with killing children. Whatever fucked up justification they used to live with the rest of their work would function just fine to also include future children. Despite all the years between Vietnam and Laos and Afghanistan and now, mines are still being designed made and planted. Yes. They definitely know now. Also, despite the facts that you mentioned, despite the hindsight of doubt in the necessity of the dropping of the bombs, a lot of people still defend it to the hilt. Still need for it to have been justifiable beyond any evidence to the contrary.

toufiqbarhamov 8y ago
As to the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, I take the view that the former was justified, and the latter was probably not. There is every reason to believe that Japan was preparing to fight on the home islands the way they had everywhere else; to the hilt, with little quarter given. Hiroshima while horrendous, was not terribly different from the firebombings of cities like Dresden and Tokyo. There’s no question that in the absence of an atomic bomb, conventional weapons would still have been deployed, and I suspect far more widely and with death tolls near or in excess of seven digit figures. So Hiroshima made sense. Then we really didn’t give them enough time to process the enormity of what had happened and surrender. They might not have, in which case Nagasaki was an option, but there are enough questions as to their full understanding of the events in Hiroshima that Nagasaki was premature, and possibly unnecessary. At the end of the day the world has been subjected to the second global conflict started by Germany’s desire to conquer Europe in a handful of decades. The appetite for a long slog to inevitable victory over a mountain of allied and Japanese corpses wasn’t there, and I don’t blame them,
- cam_l 8y ago
  Sure, Hiroshima was no worse than Dresden or Tokyo. I respectfully disagree that it was justified, I take the view all three are war crimes. I fully understand that a lot of people believe Hiroshima was necessary. And at the time I am sure a lot of the people involved believed it (not arguing this). But this was kind of my point. And you pretty much say as much. They were happy to sacrifice a hundred thousand innocents for the benefit of reducing the hard slog. We know now the Japanese forces were close to spent (relatively speaking). We know now they had offered conditional terms to the soviets. It is arguable that the US, in communications with the soviets, also knew the soviets were preparing to attack Japan, knew of Japans lack of offensive capability, but were concerned that the terms of surrender may end in a carve up of japan with the soviets. This was a careful and premeditated attack to further american interests for the post war, rather than a do or die fight for survival. Even with hindsight, (as in, if you knew then what you know now) people are loathe to admit it may not have been the correct course of action. Thing is, even when we know what we know now, and with the benefit of being someone without 'skin in the game', mentally, most people are with Thanos on these things. Somehow when faced with the scale of events people lose their shit, are unable to make morally defensible decisions. How about approaching it from an individual point of view and scaling up from there, what if a person burned someone alive because they believed it would deter some other person from invading their home? And the reason I brought it up, it is a well known story where the views of the designers, the victims, the proponents are all well known. Only one of them quit during the project, they all knew what they were doing. They knew it would kill children. Some of them cared, not enough to stop doing it. No idea who designed the cluster bombs. The only other well known weapons designer who has brought as much havoc I could think of is Kalashnikov, but that case is less certain. The cluster bombs, the atomic bomb, they were designed to kill indiscriminately. They knew it.

yourapostasy 8y ago

> ...the man who despite believing in the necessity and inevitability of it all, took his own life (Oppenheimer),... J. Robert Oppenheimer passed away from complications of throat cancer. It was Katherine "Toni" Oppenheimer Silber his daughter, who took her own life. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Robert_Oppenheimer#Final_years_and_death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Robert_Oppenheimer#Final_ye...

toufiqbarhamov 8y ago
Wow... I’m truly shocked that I’ve had such a strange misconception about how Oppenheimer died for decades! Thanks for clearing that up, I stand very much corrected.