5 ms·

>As long as one doesn’t own land and has to rely on hired labour, there is no point in farming near a city. As a hobby, yes. Otherwise, no. so, my understandin

by lsc 8y ago

>As long as one doesn’t own land and has to rely on hired labour, there is no point in farming near a city. As a hobby, yes. Otherwise, no. so, my understanding is that most of the farming that happens outside of CA, cereal crops and the like, is super capital intensive, but not very labor intensive. On the farm I was speaking of before that has been in my family for some time (though it has consolidated; there's one nuclear family that operates land that used to belong to a bunch of family units) - that one farm is mostly operated by one couple (and, of course, a whole bunch of equipment) mostly growing things like corn, soybeans and wheat. Of course, the sort of vegetables you see grown in California are a lot more labor intensive. I actually think your perception of rent vs buying land might be reversed? Land near cities is in high demand for speculation... for building houses on. So the purchase price would be higher than rural land. But if you are renting it out for agricultural use? Growing cereal crops near town isn't going to generate a whole lot more value than growing cereal crops in very rural areas, so I don't imagine the rent is that much different (though there's probably more "I can sell it to a developer" clauses in land near towns) - I mean, the thing is that a lot of places have zoning restrictions that make it really hard to convert ag land to residential use. Again, the equation is probably different if you are farming vegetables; I don't really care if my cereal grains are shipped halfway across the country, but I'm willing to pay a significant premium for local, fresh vegetables. On the other hand, unless you are farming fresh vegetables and charging a premium, there's no benefit to farming near a city, and even then, it's probably small. So, uh, were I able to, I'd probably delete my comment that you responded to, just 'cause the question was "would you see a bump by moving your farm to a urban area" not "could you make a decent living at farming, and would you need to be educated"

jelliclesfarm 8y ago
Many points. I will address them and this is just my 2c: 1. I think there has to be local food and food security in the form of local urban Ag even for big cities. Why? 2. Because. Supply chain is convoluted. We are entering a whole diff timeline when fossil fuel based Ag is just not going to be sustainable. 3. We are losing habitat and degrading environment by compartmentalising Ag. Even in rural Ag areas, watertable is polluted and the pristine fruit orchards have to be spared. Even if you practice organic ag(assuming), just the act of timing releases fungal spores from the soil causing valley fever. It’s a big deal here in central California. Children of farmers suffer high rates of asthma. They are obese and farmers are increasingly diabetic. Obesity from fast food is also a form of malnutrition. 4. It’s ironic that in the Bay Area, we have built housing on the most fertile soils in the country..the world even. It beggars belief! 5. During a drought, most of our Ag went outside as exports. Our food came from South America. The commodity crops of Midwest was exported or sold for ethanol or HFCS or as fodder for hogs which is another water thirsty commodity. Everything we do, we are not taking water into account. It’s the next ‘gold’ and will be scarce and climate change reliant. These are serious issues. 6. Another reason food must be grown in cities for local food security as well as wastage is because billions of dollars lost every year because of supply chain. Too long. Everything is from elsewhere. 7. It’s easier now because of technology and indoor Ag. We must start protecting watersheds and aquifers..rehabilitate soil and start redirecting. It’s possible now because we have knowledge and awareness ..and we have technology to make up. What we need is a change in attitude and the political will as in the people demanding politicians that we can no longer have ‘politics as usual’. Politics of water..politics of development...politics of food and trade in food. 8. Cities are quietly allowing zone changes from Ag and protected lands to real estate development. In CA..developers lobby has tremendous clout and want to challenge even CEQA..which is our California environmental quality act. 9. A lot of Ag land is actually owned by foreign investors. China, Middle East investors especially. How can Ag land be owned by foreigners? But it happens. Farm REITs are tapped into by investors for pension funds and insurance companies. 10. The entire economy of the USA must go to Gamblers Anonymous because it’s run on speculation. And it’s not even intelligent speculation. 11. If I were the Queen of the world(sadly..for the world..I am not)...I would make sure half the land is returned back to nature. I wouldn’t incentivize procreation of humans at the cost of other species. There is a certainly a cost to introducing more humans to this planet. I would look into technology to produce more without destroying our planet. Until then, we must tread carefully. 12. I don’t see a future in farming unless we automate farming. And it’s possible. But right now, it seems like what we do is just fine. It’s not because the price we have paid for farming wrt loss of soil biome, pollution from petrochemical based Ag processes and subsidied food(esp grains and dairy) and the reliance on animal based food that has introduced a greater problem than co2. Methane. Loss of carbon sequestration from lost grasslands and forests. Not to mention the staggering number of species loss and habitat destruction. 13. Without pointing fingers, we must move forward and implement new strategies. Live on half the land mass and return the rest to nature. We now have technology and know-how to do least harm and still live well. But why don’t we do that? Please don’t delete anything you wrote. I enjoyed this opportunity to share my thoughts(even though some of them were digressions) as they have been weighing heavily. I wanted to buy a 40-100 acre farm some five years ago and not being a generational farmer, I wanted to get my toes wet, as it were..in a small acreage. As I framed my little acre and spoke to other farmers and read more about what’s happening, I don’t think I am interested in farming unless I can do it differently. Farming as we know it is wasteful and harmful. In more ways than one. This will likely be my last year if I can’t find a whole systems design for intelligent automation in farms. It makes me sad but I can’t be part of this circus. I am losing anyways.
- lsc 8y ago
  Hey, so first, I might be reading your post wrong, but... it seems like you might want to check out intentional communities; like I think visiting one might be what you are looking for in that sustainable agricultural lifestyle you want? I just think it's really important to know that there are other people in the world like you, that you fit in somewhere; even if you don't end up living in that place, I personally find it hugely comforting to know there's a place where I fit in. (for me, that place is Silicon Valley. I totally understand that not everyone feels welcome here, but I feel welcome here in a way that I've never felt welcome anywhere else. I think the place like that is different for everyone, and that it's important to find it.) and from reading your post, I think you might find something like that feeling at one of these communes. I was born here: https://www.eastwindblog.co https://www.eastwindblog.co - they do a bunch of agriculture related stuff, and have a culture that is also very concerned about sustainability, but that also is interested in automation; they have several agriculture-adjacent businesses, and they grow most of their own food. (I don't know how much food they grow to sell; they certainly process and sell a lot of nut-butters, with a focus on nutbutters for people who need careful separation of types of nuts: https://www.eastwindnutbutters.com https://www.eastwindnutbutters.com ) and, in fact, some of their alumini have gone on to start serious companies: NASDAQ: AGNC Cat Kincade was involved (though she was more involved with Twin Oaks, a similar commune in Canada) - I mention this because she's a pretty good author, and wrote a lot about her experiences at the commune, so if you want to read up on it before giving it a visit, I'd start with her. I also know of a bunch of smaller communes that do agriculture on a more hobbyish basis (though still with a focus on sustainability) - I generally think you should check out the big ones, first, but if you are more comfortable with a smaller, more 'large family' sized group, my email should be in my profile and I can do a few introductions, or at least one I can certify as not crazy, who often will take in strangers who have agricultural interests. (I still think a major community like East Wind or Twin Oaks is probably better for long term living...)
  - jelliclesfarm 8y ago
    Thank you!! I am not enamoured with that kind of lifestyle. I love living in the Bay Area and especially Silicon Valley..love the weather here. I like sci fi and going to opera in the city ..I like hiking and still be able to slink back into my cave or just spend time needing out on soil and gardening by myself. Where else can we find a place like Silicon Valley..the hype is so spot on. That’s why I fret when it keeps getting close to not so positive changes. I love that electric feeling and the new ideas buzzing around here. Of course, family too. There is also a lot of hostility to technology in Ag. Even amongst the young people(and I am not young myself). I like robotics and really do believe we can check out Mars in our lifetimes. I make non PC jokes and can be embarrassing company for people who are into this with a deep abiding purpose. Maybe it’s my delusion but it’s too late for me to give that up. I also find that the farming community is allergic to money. I don’t know why. I like money. If it’s not making money to support the business, it’s a hobby. The younger generation is always looking for all forms of justice and resisting something or other. I am an immigrant myself and I am VERY grateful to be here in the United States. And Bay Area. I love it here and can’t get myself worked up too much. Because I have seen worse. No matter how bad things gets here, it’s still better here than most other parts of the world and I appreciate that. I only end up irritating them when I try to share my dreams and visions. I have been told that I don’t have a farmer’s work ethic because I want robots to do the work instead of ‘dirt under my nails’ or because I think food must be at least 4x more expensive given the manual work that goes into organic speciality foods. I also think standing in a farmers market and hawking tomatoes for $2/lb is an utter waste of my time. I guess it’s a good thing I didn’t jump into farming and sell the house to buy a farm!! I just realized after all these years that I don’t fit in..just like I don’t fit in as the tech worker in Silicon Valley...and I am relieved. Now..I can look for something else but not before I put it to sleep after giving it a final shot for the next 12 more months. I would be happy even if I can make a prototype or even a low hanging fruit of a white paper of a sustainable full automation of small acreages. It will be worth the 5+ years I tried farming. To me, anyways. But if there a tech friendly ecological minded natural farming community, I might fit in! That the community you mentioned is into automation makes me want to look them up and perhaps I can hope for a west coast chapter? I appreciate your response!

by lsc 8y ago

jelliclesfarm 8y ago

Many points. I will address them and this is just my 2c: 1. I think there has to be local food and food security in the form of local urban Ag even for big cities. Why? 2. Because. Supply chain is convoluted. We are entering a whole diff timeline when fossil fuel based Ag is just not going to be sustainable. 3. We are losing habitat and degrading environment by compartmentalising Ag. Even in rural Ag areas, watertable is polluted and the pristine fruit orchards have to be spared. Even if you practice organic ag(assuming), just the act of timing releases fungal spores from the soil causing valley fever. It’s a big deal here in central California. Children of farmers suffer high rates of asthma. They are obese and farmers are increasingly diabetic. Obesity from fast food is also a form of malnutrition. 4. It’s ironic that in the Bay Area, we have built housing on the most fertile soils in the country..the world even. It beggars belief! 5. During a drought, most of our Ag went outside as exports. Our food came from South America. The commodity crops of Midwest was exported or sold for ethanol or HFCS or as fodder for hogs which is another water thirsty commodity. Everything we do, we are not taking water into account. It’s the next ‘gold’ and will be scarce and climate change reliant. These are serious issues. 6. Another reason food must be grown in cities for local food security as well as wastage is because billions of dollars lost every year because of supply chain. Too long. Everything is from elsewhere. 7. It’s easier now because of technology and indoor Ag. We must start protecting watersheds and aquifers..rehabilitate soil and start redirecting. It’s possible now because we have knowledge and awareness ..and we have technology to make up. What we need is a change in attitude and the political will as in the people demanding politicians that we can no longer have ‘politics as usual’. Politics of water..politics of development...politics of food and trade in food. 8. Cities are quietly allowing zone changes from Ag and protected lands to real estate development. In CA..developers lobby has tremendous clout and want to challenge even CEQA..which is our California environmental quality act. 9. A lot of Ag land is actually owned by foreign investors. China, Middle East investors especially. How can Ag land be owned by foreigners? But it happens. Farm REITs are tapped into by investors for pension funds and insurance companies. 10. The entire economy of the USA must go to Gamblers Anonymous because it’s run on speculation. And it’s not even intelligent speculation. 11. If I were the Queen of the world(sadly..for the world..I am not)...I would make sure half the land is returned back to nature. I wouldn’t incentivize procreation of humans at the cost of other species. There is a certainly a cost to introducing more humans to this planet. I would look into technology to produce more without destroying our planet. Until then, we must tread carefully. 12. I don’t see a future in farming unless we automate farming. And it’s possible. But right now, it seems like what we do is just fine. It’s not because the price we have paid for farming wrt loss of soil biome, pollution from petrochemical based Ag processes and subsidied food(esp grains and dairy) and the reliance on animal based food that has introduced a greater problem than co2. Methane. Loss of carbon sequestration from lost grasslands and forests. Not to mention the staggering number of species loss and habitat destruction. 13. Without pointing fingers, we must move forward and implement new strategies. Live on half the land mass and return the rest to nature. We now have technology and know-how to do least harm and still live well. But why don’t we do that? Please don’t delete anything you wrote. I enjoyed this opportunity to share my thoughts(even though some of them were digressions) as they have been weighing heavily. I wanted to buy a 40-100 acre farm some five years ago and not being a generational farmer, I wanted to get my toes wet, as it were..in a small acreage. As I framed my little acre and spoke to other farmers and read more about what’s happening, I don’t think I am interested in farming unless I can do it differently. Farming as we know it is wasteful and harmful. In more ways than one. This will likely be my last year if I can’t find a whole systems design for intelligent automation in farms. It makes me sad but I can’t be part of this circus. I am losing anyways.

lsc 8y ago
Hey, so first, I might be reading your post wrong, but... it seems like you might want to check out intentional communities; like I think visiting one might be what you are looking for in that sustainable agricultural lifestyle you want? I just think it's really important to know that there are other people in the world like you, that you fit in somewhere; even if you don't end up living in that place, I personally find it hugely comforting to know there's a place where I fit in. (for me, that place is Silicon Valley. I totally understand that not everyone feels welcome here, but I feel welcome here in a way that I've never felt welcome anywhere else. I think the place like that is different for everyone, and that it's important to find it.) and from reading your post, I think you might find something like that feeling at one of these communes. I was born here: https://www.eastwindblog.co https://www.eastwindblog.co - they do a bunch of agriculture related stuff, and have a culture that is also very concerned about sustainability, but that also is interested in automation; they have several agriculture-adjacent businesses, and they grow most of their own food. (I don't know how much food they grow to sell; they certainly process and sell a lot of nut-butters, with a focus on nutbutters for people who need careful separation of types of nuts: https://www.eastwindnutbutters.com https://www.eastwindnutbutters.com ) and, in fact, some of their alumini have gone on to start serious companies: NASDAQ: AGNC Cat Kincade was involved (though she was more involved with Twin Oaks, a similar commune in Canada) - I mention this because she's a pretty good author, and wrote a lot about her experiences at the commune, so if you want to read up on it before giving it a visit, I'd start with her. I also know of a bunch of smaller communes that do agriculture on a more hobbyish basis (though still with a focus on sustainability) - I generally think you should check out the big ones, first, but if you are more comfortable with a smaller, more 'large family' sized group, my email should be in my profile and I can do a few introductions, or at least one I can certify as not crazy, who often will take in strangers who have agricultural interests. (I still think a major community like East Wind or Twin Oaks is probably better for long term living...)
- jelliclesfarm 8y ago
  Thank you!! I am not enamoured with that kind of lifestyle. I love living in the Bay Area and especially Silicon Valley..love the weather here. I like sci fi and going to opera in the city ..I like hiking and still be able to slink back into my cave or just spend time needing out on soil and gardening by myself. Where else can we find a place like Silicon Valley..the hype is so spot on. That’s why I fret when it keeps getting close to not so positive changes. I love that electric feeling and the new ideas buzzing around here. Of course, family too. There is also a lot of hostility to technology in Ag. Even amongst the young people(and I am not young myself). I like robotics and really do believe we can check out Mars in our lifetimes. I make non PC jokes and can be embarrassing company for people who are into this with a deep abiding purpose. Maybe it’s my delusion but it’s too late for me to give that up. I also find that the farming community is allergic to money. I don’t know why. I like money. If it’s not making money to support the business, it’s a hobby. The younger generation is always looking for all forms of justice and resisting something or other. I am an immigrant myself and I am VERY grateful to be here in the United States. And Bay Area. I love it here and can’t get myself worked up too much. Because I have seen worse. No matter how bad things gets here, it’s still better here than most other parts of the world and I appreciate that. I only end up irritating them when I try to share my dreams and visions. I have been told that I don’t have a farmer’s work ethic because I want robots to do the work instead of ‘dirt under my nails’ or because I think food must be at least 4x more expensive given the manual work that goes into organic speciality foods. I also think standing in a farmers market and hawking tomatoes for $2/lb is an utter waste of my time. I guess it’s a good thing I didn’t jump into farming and sell the house to buy a farm!! I just realized after all these years that I don’t fit in..just like I don’t fit in as the tech worker in Silicon Valley...and I am relieved. Now..I can look for something else but not before I put it to sleep after giving it a final shot for the next 12 more months. I would be happy even if I can make a prototype or even a low hanging fruit of a white paper of a sustainable full automation of small acreages. It will be worth the 5+ years I tried farming. To me, anyways. But if there a tech friendly ecological minded natural farming community, I might fit in! That the community you mentioned is into automation makes me want to look them up and perhaps I can hope for a west coast chapter? I appreciate your response!