7 ms·

So I was teaching a new guy on building some of the interior work on sailboats. I showed him how to drill a couple of holes through the fiberglass flange to mo

So I was teaching a new guy on building some of the interior work on sailboats. I showed him how to drill a couple of holes through the fiberglass flange to mount something-or-other. Several hours later my boss asks me why there's two small holes in the hull. Well, I didn't specifically tell him not to drill through the flange, the cm of space, and through the whole hull.

Waterluvian 8y ago
I'm a smart person but when learning stuff I often feel really dumb because I ask what should be really obvious questions. It's some weird mix of ignorance and fear of doing it wrong in front of the boss. "So fasten x to y with a screw." "Do I drill through and into the workbench too?" "Why would you do that?!" (In my mind) well I saw someone else fastening a work piece to the bench temporarily like that and why would the screw be this long then? Oh wait yeah that makes zero sense. My logic centre isn't working fast at all.
- sandworm101 8y ago
  There are lots of times that you drill/saw past the piece you are cutting and into the support material, the bench, below. This generally makes for cleaner edges. Normally you put a sacrifice piece underneath, but sometimes the workbench takes the hit.
  - strken 8y ago
    My dad made me buy him some hole filling putty with my pocket money after I did this to his workbench at an age where I really should have known better. Apparently you're meant to clamp an offcut between the piece you're drilling into and the bench.
    - Waterluvian 8y ago
      In retrospect do you think your dad's approach was an effective teaching method? I'm slowly trying to figure out what kind of disciplinarian I'm going to be with my boys.
      - vidanay 8y ago
        Depends if it was accompanied by insults and derision (bad) or patience and understanding that it is a learning opportunity and mistakes need to be rectified (note I didn't say paid for)
        manyxcxi 8y ago
        This is the approach I (try, and try and try and try) to take with my kids (6,4,2). I repeatedly tell them I will never be mad at them for mistakes, but they have to help fix them- whatever that may be. I also tell them I will get mad if they do it on purpose and/or I’ve instructed them not to do said thing that caused whatever issue. I try very hard to be explicit with instruction. Saying “be careful” doesn’t mean a whole lot, but saying “pour the water slowly and with two hands” can lead to a good result. Or “don’t jump off the couch because [insert reasons]”. Frankly, they’re young and even when they’ve done something on purpose or are being bratty I try to coach them up again, sometimes I lose it and get mad- but I never use derision or name calling. Losing it is usually just “Why? WHY?! Why did you just pull the step stool out and use the Christmas tree as a punching bag after I told you to stay back because it will fall over?!” I use my logic brain to try and rationalize myself into a calm state, “well you told them to be careful with the jug of water, you didn’t say don’t pour it all over the dining room table”. Man, they find some awesome ways to make a disaster sometimes...
        gilbetron 8y ago
        I told my son I would never be made at him for a mistake, then he mistakenly tried to kick my hand while wrestling and his heel nailed my jaw and I bit hard into my bottom lip. I was so mad ;) But generally, yeah, I talk to him about stuff and go over consequences and empathy and such, and I agree it works pretty well.
        Waterluvian 8y ago
        This is a treasure trove of wisdom. Thank you for sharing. The challenge I have is my hard wiring for anger with pain. I'm a goofy dad but when my toddler swings his skull full speed into my jaw, a spark ignites something in me and my civilized brain can muster one thing: put him down, go to the garage, and kick a garbage can. Otherwise I have this uncorked rage and I feel scared with it. I'm not proud of it but I acknowledge that it's in my wiring.
  - JshWright 8y ago
    In my case the workbench is the sacrificial piece. I have a 3/4" sheet of MDF on top of my workbench that I can screw into/paint/whatever, and just swap it out when needed (ends up being every 18-24 months with my fairly limited usage).
- randallsquared 8y ago
  If you don't know, it is not clear that it makes zero sense. I'm often on each side of this, and what it really drives home is that most people do not actually consider most of the ways in which something can be done differently. :)
  - wallace_f 8y ago
    Yea. Brains work differently. Some optimize for least-wrong; others curiously search for most-right or why is it right? Learning how to suffer fools and survive foolish aggresses is a real thing in some jobs, and it will quickly make you abandon curiosity.
  - scarejunba 8y ago
    Classically illustrated by the "give instructions to make a sandwich game" https://youtu.be/cDA3_5982h8 https://youtu.be/cDA3_5982h8
- garmaine 8y ago
  > My logic centre isn't working fast at all. Your logic centre was working plenty fast enough. It's just hard for someone who already knows to procedure to appreciate just how open-ended the possible space of procedures is. It seems obvious to them, but only because their mental filters are already blocking out other possible solutions.
- Cthulhu_ 8y ago
  I wonder if that's because a lot of tools (and software) are nowadays designed so that you can't make a mistake, or if you do, it's easily fixable.
- ergothus 8y ago
  I just started a new job, so to reduce anxiety about how much I dont know I'm trying desperately to hold on to beginners/childs mind - absorbing without doing my normal immediate '"let's connect this to all I know". It seems to be working, in the sense that I'm learning new material quickly without overwhelming frustration at not knowing how to do things or what a lot of terminology means, but I also have a lot more incidents like you describe - because I'm not yet trying everything together, conclusions about what makes zero sense are absent. Still, at least in this first month, I wouldn't want to change methods.
- blopp99 8y ago
  I do the same about the simple/obvious questions, cuz it's what's has worked for me. I do however understand the look on people's faces when even they question how could I make such stupid questions.
kokoroko 8y ago
Somewhat tangentially relevant, one of the reasons people find math particularly hard is because many people come into math with attitude that some things are "obvious", "self-explanatory", "common sense".
- manicdee 8y ago
  And then we find that mathematicians have wicked senses of humour so use words like “common sense” as a self-deprecatory reference to the decade they spent finding the proof :D
- geezerjay 8y ago
  "The proof is trivial and is left as an exercise to the reader." Sometimes it's infuriating.

Waterluvian 8y ago

I'm a smart person but when learning stuff I often feel really dumb because I ask what should be really obvious questions. It's some weird mix of ignorance and fear of doing it wrong in front of the boss. "So fasten x to y with a screw." "Do I drill through and into the workbench too?" "Why would you do that?!" (In my mind) well I saw someone else fastening a work piece to the bench temporarily like that and why would the screw be this long then? Oh wait yeah that makes zero sense. My logic centre isn't working fast at all.

sandworm101 8y ago
There are lots of times that you drill/saw past the piece you are cutting and into the support material, the bench, below. This generally makes for cleaner edges. Normally you put a sacrifice piece underneath, but sometimes the workbench takes the hit.
- strken 8y ago
  My dad made me buy him some hole filling putty with my pocket money after I did this to his workbench at an age where I really should have known better. Apparently you're meant to clamp an offcut between the piece you're drilling into and the bench.
  - Waterluvian 8y ago
    In retrospect do you think your dad's approach was an effective teaching method? I'm slowly trying to figure out what kind of disciplinarian I'm going to be with my boys.
    - vidanay 8y ago
      Depends if it was accompanied by insults and derision (bad) or patience and understanding that it is a learning opportunity and mistakes need to be rectified (note I didn't say paid for)
      - manyxcxi 8y ago
        This is the approach I (try, and try and try and try) to take with my kids (6,4,2). I repeatedly tell them I will never be mad at them for mistakes, but they have to help fix them- whatever that may be. I also tell them I will get mad if they do it on purpose and/or I’ve instructed them not to do said thing that caused whatever issue. I try very hard to be explicit with instruction. Saying “be careful” doesn’t mean a whole lot, but saying “pour the water slowly and with two hands” can lead to a good result. Or “don’t jump off the couch because [insert reasons]”. Frankly, they’re young and even when they’ve done something on purpose or are being bratty I try to coach them up again, sometimes I lose it and get mad- but I never use derision or name calling. Losing it is usually just “Why? WHY?! Why did you just pull the step stool out and use the Christmas tree as a punching bag after I told you to stay back because it will fall over?!” I use my logic brain to try and rationalize myself into a calm state, “well you told them to be careful with the jug of water, you didn’t say don’t pour it all over the dining room table”. Man, they find some awesome ways to make a disaster sometimes...
        gilbetron 8y ago
        I told my son I would never be made at him for a mistake, then he mistakenly tried to kick my hand while wrestling and his heel nailed my jaw and I bit hard into my bottom lip. I was so mad ;) But generally, yeah, I talk to him about stuff and go over consequences and empathy and such, and I agree it works pretty well.
        Waterluvian 8y ago
        This is a treasure trove of wisdom. Thank you for sharing. The challenge I have is my hard wiring for anger with pain. I'm a goofy dad but when my toddler swings his skull full speed into my jaw, a spark ignites something in me and my civilized brain can muster one thing: put him down, go to the garage, and kick a garbage can. Otherwise I have this uncorked rage and I feel scared with it. I'm not proud of it but I acknowledge that it's in my wiring.
- JshWright 8y ago
  In my case the workbench is the sacrificial piece. I have a 3/4" sheet of MDF on top of my workbench that I can screw into/paint/whatever, and just swap it out when needed (ends up being every 18-24 months with my fairly limited usage).
randallsquared 8y ago
If you don't know, it is not clear that it makes zero sense. I'm often on each side of this, and what it really drives home is that most people do not actually consider most of the ways in which something can be done differently. :)
- wallace_f 8y ago
  Yea. Brains work differently. Some optimize for least-wrong; others curiously search for most-right or why is it right? Learning how to suffer fools and survive foolish aggresses is a real thing in some jobs, and it will quickly make you abandon curiosity.
- scarejunba 8y ago
  Classically illustrated by the "give instructions to make a sandwich game" https://youtu.be/cDA3_5982h8 https://youtu.be/cDA3_5982h8
garmaine 8y ago
> My logic centre isn't working fast at all. Your logic centre was working plenty fast enough. It's just hard for someone who already knows to procedure to appreciate just how open-ended the possible space of procedures is. It seems obvious to them, but only because their mental filters are already blocking out other possible solutions.
Cthulhu_ 8y ago
I wonder if that's because a lot of tools (and software) are nowadays designed so that you can't make a mistake, or if you do, it's easily fixable.
ergothus 8y ago
I just started a new job, so to reduce anxiety about how much I dont know I'm trying desperately to hold on to beginners/childs mind - absorbing without doing my normal immediate '"let's connect this to all I know". It seems to be working, in the sense that I'm learning new material quickly without overwhelming frustration at not knowing how to do things or what a lot of terminology means, but I also have a lot more incidents like you describe - because I'm not yet trying everything together, conclusions about what makes zero sense are absent. Still, at least in this first month, I wouldn't want to change methods.
blopp99 8y ago
I do the same about the simple/obvious questions, cuz it's what's has worked for me. I do however understand the look on people's faces when even they question how could I make such stupid questions.

kokoroko 8y ago

Somewhat tangentially relevant, one of the reasons people find math particularly hard is because many people come into math with attitude that some things are "obvious", "self-explanatory", "common sense".

manicdee 8y ago
And then we find that mathematicians have wicked senses of humour so use words like “common sense” as a self-deprecatory reference to the decade they spent finding the proof :D
geezerjay 8y ago
"The proof is trivial and is left as an exercise to the reader." Sometimes it's infuriating.