7 ms·

I studied a degree called "Software Engineering" and am acredited by the Australian Institute of Engineers (the first, and AFAIK, only, Software degree that is

by grecy 8y ago

I studied a degree called "Software Engineering" and am acredited by the Australian Institute of Engineers (the first, and AFAIK, only, Software degree that is certified). Working in Canada where my degree was not certified, all the PEng people would get seriously uptight if I even said "I studied Engineering" or "I have a bachelor of Engineering".

chrisseaton 8y ago
> Working in Canada where my degree was not certified If they have an engineering conference in Canada, and a notable engineering expert comes from abroad to speak but isn't from a Canadian certified school (perhaps they're from a British one instead) do they get uptight about that as well? At some point they must accept that non-Canadian-certified people can be engineers as well?
- SilasX 8y ago
  I remember there was a case where an American academic headed a scientific organization in Germany but was told he couldn’t call himself Dr. because his doctorate was from America. Found a link about it: http://m.spiegel.de/international/germany/title-fight-us-academics-harassed-over-false-credentials-a-540459.html http://m.spiegel.de/international/germany/title-fight-us-aca...
- daveFNbuck 8y ago
  The issue here is probably more that software engineering isn't considered to be engineering in Canada. If a notable historian from a country where they call historians engineers came to the country to speak, people probably would get uptight about that.
  - logifail 8y ago
    >> The issue here is probably more that software engineering isn't considered to be engineering in Canada By whom? Canadian software engineers, other types of Canadian engineers, or by some professional engineering body that's trying to protect their profession?
    - subway 8y ago
      By the legislative bodies in the provinces and territories. For instance in BC: http://www.bclaws.ca/civix/document/id/complete/statreg/96116_01 http://www.bclaws.ca/civix/document/id/complete/statreg/9611...
      - alphakilo 8y ago
        I am actually a Software Engineering Undergraduate Student in Canada. We are real engineers! We get licenced the same way through graduating from an accredited program, getting the 4 years of experience and writing an ethics exam. In Canada engineer is like lawyer. You can specialize in a certain part of law (e.g. patent, corporate, criminal). just like you specialize in certain fields (e.g. aerospace, mechanical, geomagnetic, biomed). What matters in both cases is being given a license.
        daveFNbuck 8y ago
        I didn't know about that. Is the license legally required to be hired for all programming jobs, or just for jobs related to specific fields and government?
    - daveFNbuck 8y ago
      I had assumed by everyone. As an American software engineer, I don't consider software engineering to be engineering because we don't have a professional body or licensing or standards. I didn't know Canada was any different.
      - chrisseaton 8y ago
        > I don't consider software engineering to be engineering because we don't have a professional body or licensing or standards Why would this be the defining characteristic of engineering?
        daveFNbuck 8y ago
        It's not the defining characteristic, but I've always understood it to be a necessary requirement before a person can be called an engineer.
- jpambrun 8y ago
  In Quebec (not sure about the rest of Canada), you can't call yourself engineer if not a member of the ordre des ingénieurs. You can sign b.eng, but not eng. You can say you have a Batchelor of engineering, but not that you are an engineer.
- grecy 8y ago
  I think the problem revolved around me actually working, not just visiting.
Nimitz14 8y ago
A PEng is waay more work and implies way more experience and knowledge that someone who's just done a Bachelor. I can understand their annoyance.
- vonmoltke 8y ago
  Maybe a PEng takes more work than a PE, but a PE is not "way more work" than a Bachelor's. It basically just involves doing your job well enough for three years to get three recommendations from PEs and remaining sharp enough on academic subjects to pass an exam at the end of that period. I didn't bother mainly because I neglected to take the FE before I graduated.
- eigenvector 8y ago
  There are plenty of people with PEng licenses that have never done a day of fundamental engineering work in their life (e.g. people doing project management or technical sales). These people usually know what they don't know, and won't try to - for instance - sign off on the plans for a steam turbine, so they are largely harmless. If you work at a large technical company, getting your PEng can be mostly a form of credentialing that your employer pays for and may come with a small pay increase. Lots of companies that employ PEngs (and indeed demand the credential) don't actually do any engineering work - only management of engineering work by contractors - so there's no way for their employees to properly build their capabilities as engineers. It would annoy me if someone without any engineering education or experience tried to pass themselves off as an engineer in a way that exaggerated their competence, but if a guy from Iran with 20 years solid experience as an engineer who hasn't yet jumped through the excessively many hoops to obtain a PEng in Canada wants to write "engineer" in his email signature, that's fine with me. It's the term that best represents his competencies. The only limitation is that he won't be able to take responsibility for plans or designs without an actual license.
naasking 8y ago
> Working in Canada where my degree was not certified, all the PEng people would get seriously uptight if I even said "I studied Engineering" or "I have a bachelor of Engineering". As a Canadian engineering graduate myself, I don't think that's true. Saying you studied engineering is fine, that's literally what the degree is. Calling yourself an engineer is a different story, and that requires more work. It's like calling yourself a doctor without a doctorate. Notice how I didn't call myself an engineer, and that's because I didn't get my PEng.
- criddell 8y ago
  Do they let the people operating trains call themselves engineers?
  - jpambrun 8y ago
    No. https://www.oiq.qc.ca/en/media/pressReleases/Pages/default.aspx?communiqueid=135 https://www.oiq.qc.ca/en/media/pressReleases/Pages/default.a...
    - criddell 8y ago
      That link isn't very clear. Plus it's only Quebec. I did a little Googling and in Ontario there are exceptions for flight engineer, train engineer, sound engineer, aircraft maintenance engineer, operating engineer, stationary engineer, and hoisting engineer.
      - jpambrun 8y ago
        I am from Quebec, so this what I know. The link says you can't and ask media to stop doing it. It also says that the train engineer union could keep his name because it existed before the law.
- InternetOfStuff 8y ago
  Out of curiosity: I studied engineering in Germany. There's no such thing as a PEng in Germany -- the only thing is that the title of Dipl.-Ing. (equivalent to MEng), which was the culmination of my studies, is protected. How does it make you feel for me to claim I'm an engineer? (BTW, I get seriously uptight at all the web designers who like to call themselves engineers :-) )

by grecy 8y ago

chrisseaton 8y ago

> Working in Canada where my degree was not certified If they have an engineering conference in Canada, and a notable engineering expert comes from abroad to speak but isn't from a Canadian certified school (perhaps they're from a British one instead) do they get uptight about that as well? At some point they must accept that non-Canadian-certified people can be engineers as well?

SilasX 8y ago
I remember there was a case where an American academic headed a scientific organization in Germany but was told he couldn’t call himself Dr. because his doctorate was from America. Found a link about it: http://m.spiegel.de/international/germany/title-fight-us-academics-harassed-over-false-credentials-a-540459.html http://m.spiegel.de/international/germany/title-fight-us-aca...
daveFNbuck 8y ago
The issue here is probably more that software engineering isn't considered to be engineering in Canada. If a notable historian from a country where they call historians engineers came to the country to speak, people probably would get uptight about that.
- logifail 8y ago
  >> The issue here is probably more that software engineering isn't considered to be engineering in Canada By whom? Canadian software engineers, other types of Canadian engineers, or by some professional engineering body that's trying to protect their profession?
  - subway 8y ago
    By the legislative bodies in the provinces and territories. For instance in BC: http://www.bclaws.ca/civix/document/id/complete/statreg/96116_01 http://www.bclaws.ca/civix/document/id/complete/statreg/9611...
    - alphakilo 8y ago
      I am actually a Software Engineering Undergraduate Student in Canada. We are real engineers! We get licenced the same way through graduating from an accredited program, getting the 4 years of experience and writing an ethics exam. In Canada engineer is like lawyer. You can specialize in a certain part of law (e.g. patent, corporate, criminal). just like you specialize in certain fields (e.g. aerospace, mechanical, geomagnetic, biomed). What matters in both cases is being given a license.
      - daveFNbuck 8y ago
        I didn't know about that. Is the license legally required to be hired for all programming jobs, or just for jobs related to specific fields and government?
  - daveFNbuck 8y ago
    I had assumed by everyone. As an American software engineer, I don't consider software engineering to be engineering because we don't have a professional body or licensing or standards. I didn't know Canada was any different.
    - chrisseaton 8y ago
      > I don't consider software engineering to be engineering because we don't have a professional body or licensing or standards Why would this be the defining characteristic of engineering?
      - daveFNbuck 8y ago
        It's not the defining characteristic, but I've always understood it to be a necessary requirement before a person can be called an engineer.
jpambrun 8y ago
In Quebec (not sure about the rest of Canada), you can't call yourself engineer if not a member of the ordre des ingénieurs. You can sign b.eng, but not eng. You can say you have a Batchelor of engineering, but not that you are an engineer.
grecy 8y ago
I think the problem revolved around me actually working, not just visiting.

Nimitz14 8y ago

A PEng is waay more work and implies way more experience and knowledge that someone who's just done a Bachelor. I can understand their annoyance.

vonmoltke 8y ago
Maybe a PEng takes more work than a PE, but a PE is not "way more work" than a Bachelor's. It basically just involves doing your job well enough for three years to get three recommendations from PEs and remaining sharp enough on academic subjects to pass an exam at the end of that period. I didn't bother mainly because I neglected to take the FE before I graduated.
eigenvector 8y ago
There are plenty of people with PEng licenses that have never done a day of fundamental engineering work in their life (e.g. people doing project management or technical sales). These people usually know what they don't know, and won't try to - for instance - sign off on the plans for a steam turbine, so they are largely harmless. If you work at a large technical company, getting your PEng can be mostly a form of credentialing that your employer pays for and may come with a small pay increase. Lots of companies that employ PEngs (and indeed demand the credential) don't actually do any engineering work - only management of engineering work by contractors - so there's no way for their employees to properly build their capabilities as engineers. It would annoy me if someone without any engineering education or experience tried to pass themselves off as an engineer in a way that exaggerated their competence, but if a guy from Iran with 20 years solid experience as an engineer who hasn't yet jumped through the excessively many hoops to obtain a PEng in Canada wants to write "engineer" in his email signature, that's fine with me. It's the term that best represents his competencies. The only limitation is that he won't be able to take responsibility for plans or designs without an actual license.

naasking 8y ago

> Working in Canada where my degree was not certified, all the PEng people would get seriously uptight if I even said "I studied Engineering" or "I have a bachelor of Engineering". As a Canadian engineering graduate myself, I don't think that's true. Saying you studied engineering is fine, that's literally what the degree is. Calling yourself an engineer is a different story, and that requires more work. It's like calling yourself a doctor without a doctorate. Notice how I didn't call myself an engineer, and that's because I didn't get my PEng.

criddell 8y ago
Do they let the people operating trains call themselves engineers?
- jpambrun 8y ago
  No. https://www.oiq.qc.ca/en/media/pressReleases/Pages/default.aspx?communiqueid=135 https://www.oiq.qc.ca/en/media/pressReleases/Pages/default.a...
  - criddell 8y ago
    That link isn't very clear. Plus it's only Quebec. I did a little Googling and in Ontario there are exceptions for flight engineer, train engineer, sound engineer, aircraft maintenance engineer, operating engineer, stationary engineer, and hoisting engineer.
    - jpambrun 8y ago
      I am from Quebec, so this what I know. The link says you can't and ask media to stop doing it. It also says that the train engineer union could keep his name because it existed before the law.
InternetOfStuff 8y ago
Out of curiosity: I studied engineering in Germany. There's no such thing as a PEng in Germany -- the only thing is that the title of Dipl.-Ing. (equivalent to MEng), which was the culmination of my studies, is protected. How does it make you feel for me to claim I'm an engineer? (BTW, I get seriously uptight at all the web designers who like to call themselves engineers :-) )