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The officer who took the call quickly located the woman, but she denied having suicidal thoughts, the police report said. Even so, the officer believed she migh

The officer who took the call quickly located the woman, but she denied having suicidal thoughts, the police report said. Even so, the officer believed she might harm herself and told the woman that she must go to a hospital — either voluntarily or in police custody. It’s an imperfect predictor and Facebook will make a mistake which will eventually be followed by a police shooting. After all, how many stories have been published of police called for mental health issues that resulted in the shooting of the person the caller was worried about. I hope the programmers are ready to explain how it worked because I get the feeling the family’s attorney is going to have an easy time with black boxes, machine learning, and no true tracing of why.

wtracy 8y ago
Regardless of the reasons for the call, can you really pursue damages from someone who made a good faith call to emergency services? The only legal issue I could see is violation of privacy, but I bet their EULA covers them there. Now, if they screw up bad enough, I could see it precipitating some new legislation that they might not like. Until then, I think they're in the clear. It's another one of those situations where everyone is incentivized to "do something" whether it's actually helpful or not. "Student dies after symptoms of suicidal depression went ignored" is a splashy headline. "Student unable to graduate after involuntary psychiatric detention" is not.
- thanatropism 8y ago
  Google "a bias for action" and you'll see it defended as something good.
- Trisell 8y ago
  As litigious as our society is. And having been involved in wrongful death suits in a previous line of work(firefighter/emt). When somebody is looking for money the swath of people who get sued is as long and as wide as it takes to find deep enough pockets to get some money. Facebook isn’t exactly the most trusted and liked company right now. So they are exactly the type of entity a lawyer would love to get in a court room.
- protomyth 8y ago
  Regardless of the reasons for the call, can you really pursue damages from someone who made a good faith call to emergency services? Yes, you can try to sue for anything. Also, yes, because the lawyer will try to show it was not "good faith" but a failure of software that caused the tragedy. I'm sure the discovery stage will yield enough to make it painful for Facebook. The current feelings about Facebook are going to come up. A EULA will not protect you from the families of dead people.
  - wtracy 8y ago
    > Yes, you can try to sue for anything. Point taken. > the lawyer will try to show it was not "good faith" but a failure of software AFAIK, the phone calls are being placed by Facebook employees, not software. Presumably, these employees have to look at the actual post content to even be able to make a coherent phone call. You would have to argue either that the employee was incompetent, or that the employee was coerced into making an inappropriate call.
    - protomyth 8y ago
      What’s the chance that the employees are licensed social workers or psychologists? Also, the software used in the initial data mining is going to come up. I expect discovery is going to be really painful.
kraftman 8y ago
Maybe the police should stop shooting people...
- walrus01 8y ago
  Google "suicide by cop", it's a real thing.
  - ryanlol 8y ago
    And notice how it's not really a thing in Europe, where the cops choose to not constantly shoot people.
    - badpun 8y ago
      People are unarmed in Europe, so shooting at them is almost never necessary. Meanwhile, the cops in America are constantly one pull of the trigger from their early grave, which I imagine is incredibly stressful and also, in fear of their lives, makes them more likely to assess ambigous situations as life-threatening. Compared to most of Europe, I imagine being an US cop is closer to serving in a war zone.
      - pjc50 8y ago
        Regular reminder that "Europe" is a big place, including such countries as Switzerland where guns at home are a normal part of military service. Several other countries have strong hunting cultures too.
        moogly 8y ago
        Regarding Switzerland, IIRC, since 2007, reserve/militia soldiers can keep their guns at home, but not ammunition.
        wongarsu 8y ago
        Germany has armed cops and a lot of hunters, and fairly high gun ownership rate for Western Europe. Still police practices a policy of deescalation, rarely fires their guns and basically never kills anybody. Proper training of police (years, not weeks) and a policy of deescalation have at least as big an effect as rates of gun ownership
austincheney 8y ago
This sounds like swatting.
- protomyth 8y ago
  Didn't think of it that way, but yes it could escalate into a unintentional swatting-style situation. I'm betting some newspaper will call it just that when the first tragedy happens.

wtracy 8y ago

Regardless of the reasons for the call, can you really pursue damages from someone who made a good faith call to emergency services? The only legal issue I could see is violation of privacy, but I bet their EULA covers them there. Now, if they screw up bad enough, I could see it precipitating some new legislation that they might not like. Until then, I think they're in the clear. It's another one of those situations where everyone is incentivized to "do something" whether it's actually helpful or not. "Student dies after symptoms of suicidal depression went ignored" is a splashy headline. "Student unable to graduate after involuntary psychiatric detention" is not.

thanatropism 8y ago
Google "a bias for action" and you'll see it defended as something good.
Trisell 8y ago
As litigious as our society is. And having been involved in wrongful death suits in a previous line of work(firefighter/emt). When somebody is looking for money the swath of people who get sued is as long and as wide as it takes to find deep enough pockets to get some money. Facebook isn’t exactly the most trusted and liked company right now. So they are exactly the type of entity a lawyer would love to get in a court room.
protomyth 8y ago
Regardless of the reasons for the call, can you really pursue damages from someone who made a good faith call to emergency services? Yes, you can try to sue for anything. Also, yes, because the lawyer will try to show it was not "good faith" but a failure of software that caused the tragedy. I'm sure the discovery stage will yield enough to make it painful for Facebook. The current feelings about Facebook are going to come up. A EULA will not protect you from the families of dead people.
- wtracy 8y ago
  > Yes, you can try to sue for anything. Point taken. > the lawyer will try to show it was not "good faith" but a failure of software AFAIK, the phone calls are being placed by Facebook employees, not software. Presumably, these employees have to look at the actual post content to even be able to make a coherent phone call. You would have to argue either that the employee was incompetent, or that the employee was coerced into making an inappropriate call.
  - protomyth 8y ago
    What’s the chance that the employees are licensed social workers or psychologists? Also, the software used in the initial data mining is going to come up. I expect discovery is going to be really painful.

kraftman 8y ago

Maybe the police should stop shooting people...

walrus01 8y ago
Google "suicide by cop", it's a real thing.
- ryanlol 8y ago
  And notice how it's not really a thing in Europe, where the cops choose to not constantly shoot people.
  - badpun 8y ago
    People are unarmed in Europe, so shooting at them is almost never necessary. Meanwhile, the cops in America are constantly one pull of the trigger from their early grave, which I imagine is incredibly stressful and also, in fear of their lives, makes them more likely to assess ambigous situations as life-threatening. Compared to most of Europe, I imagine being an US cop is closer to serving in a war zone.
    - pjc50 8y ago
      Regular reminder that "Europe" is a big place, including such countries as Switzerland where guns at home are a normal part of military service. Several other countries have strong hunting cultures too.
      - moogly 8y ago
        Regarding Switzerland, IIRC, since 2007, reserve/militia soldiers can keep their guns at home, but not ammunition.
      - wongarsu 8y ago
        Germany has armed cops and a lot of hunters, and fairly high gun ownership rate for Western Europe. Still police practices a policy of deescalation, rarely fires their guns and basically never kills anybody. Proper training of police (years, not weeks) and a policy of deescalation have at least as big an effect as rates of gun ownership

austincheney 8y ago

This sounds like swatting.

protomyth 8y ago
Didn't think of it that way, but yes it could escalate into a unintentional swatting-style situation. I'm betting some newspaper will call it just that when the first tragedy happens.