4 ms·
Does free speech mean anyone can call themselves a doctor, too?
by klipt 8y ago
Does free speech mean anyone can call themselves a doctor, too?
- sandov 8y agoDoes free speech mean anyone can call themselves an alien? a gnome? a horse? If you can call yourself a horse, then it makes sense that you can also call yourself a doctor.
- Rjevski 8y agoMaybe context should be taken into account? I have no problems with people calling themselves doctors (whether fake or real) unless they are doing so in order to gain a certain advantage (trust, credibility, etc). I only have a problem when someone pretends to be a doctor if they're trying to profit or harm people in some way, by for example making medication or similar.
- pkaye 8y agoWhat if one changes their last name to "MD"
- AnimalMuppet 8y agoWell, they can call themselves whatever gender they want. Why not species? If I self-identify as a hobbit, who are you to question it?
- caleblloyd 8y agoWhy not, Doctor Dre has been doing it for years.
- james_s_tayler 8y agoDr Pepper
- iamdave 8y agoNot a person. Literally incapable of practicing medicine. Or anything beyond the quenching of thirst. Now if there were a graduate degree for that, I'd audit a class or two.
- james_s_tayler 8y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_T._Pepper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_T._Pepper I only googled that out of a sense that if someone was willing to be so dismissive off the cuff then perhaps, just perhaps, there actually really was a real Dr. Pepper and that I might find him and prove that person wrong. Well... I didn't plan on learning that today.
- iamdave 8y agoHoisted, or perhaps better to say, informed by your own petard were we?
- james_s_tayler 8y agoI think I hoisted us both.
- mattmcknight 8y agoRead the article: "Unlike an 'M.D.' or 'certified public accountant,' there is no fixed meaning to the title 'engineer,' but many different types of engineers, the judge found."
- toomuchtodo 8y agoProfessional Engineer has a fixed meaning though, and it's possible legislation would be updated to specifically reference PE language in statute. https://www.nspe.org/resources/licensure/what-pe https://www.nspe.org/resources/licensure/what-pe > To become licensed, engineers must complete a four-year college degree, work under a Professional Engineer for at least four years, pass two intensive competency exams and earn a license from their state's licensure board. Then, to retain their licenses, PEs must continually maintain and improve their skills throughout their careers. > A century ago, anyone could work as an engineer without proof of competency. In order to protect the public health, safety, and welfare, the first engineering licensure law was enacted in 1907 in Wyoming. Now every state regulates the practice of engineering to ensure public safety by granting only Professional Engineers (PEs) the authority to sign and seal engineering plans and offer their services to the public. To use the PE seal, engineers must complete several steps to ensure their competency. * Earn a four-year degree in engineering from an accredited engineering program * Pass the Fundamentals of Engineering (FE) exam * Complete four years of progressive engineering experience under a PE * Pass the Principles and Practice of Engineering (PE) exam
- mattmcknight 8y agoYes, also addressed in the article and the judge's decision: "She directed the state to remove the definition of 'engineer,' from its state law and administrative rules, and simply restrict who can consider themselves a 'professional engineer,' or a 'registered professional engineer.'"
- cududa 8y agoNo, that’s one specific organizations trademark and private program. They happen to be a governing body for a narrow practice of engineering. For instance, audio engineer is a prominent title, but no governing certification body. You can’t call yourself a Realtor without belonging to a specific organization, but you can call yourself a real estate agent. Professional Engineer is a specific discipline handed a government monopoly on certification for structural engineers. Nothing more
- kbsletten 8y agoFrom the article: Beckerman, in the 25-page written ruling, declared that Järlström may study and, communicate publicly or privately about his theories relating to traffic lights, as long as his remarks occur outside the context of any employment or contractual relationship with a governmental or other group that regulates traffic light-timing. I'm guessing this means that it's not calling yourself a doctor, but practicing medicine without a license that'll get you in a whole heap of trouble.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- number6 8y agoHe has a degree from Sweden as a B.Sc. - also you can call yourself Doctor Klipt as long as you don't do it in a professional context. E.g. if this is your super villian persona or something.
- dahfizz 8y ago>Unlike an “M.D.” or “certified public accountant,” there is no fixed meaning to the title “engineer,” but many different types of engineers, the judge found.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- woah 8y agoDoes Dr. Dre have a medical PhD?
- Jach 8y agoThat and the more common "healer".
- wl 8y agoIn many circumstances, yes. Fraud and commercial speech are subject to more restrictions. If someone isn't holding themselves out in a commercial context as one who is licensed to practice medicine, isn't actually practicing medicine, and isn't otherwise committing fraud, it's probably ok legally speaking. See United States v. Alvarez for a Supreme Court case that grapples with such issues. A man falsely claimed to be a veteran and a recipient of the Medal of Honor at a government meeting. He was prosecuted and convicted for this conduct. He appealed to the Supreme Court and won.
- will_brown 8y agoThere is a very famous legal case dubbed “Dr. Feelgood”. The guy would approach women in apartment parking lots, tell them they have a disease and he could “cure” them with sex, because he has been injected with the cure. He successfully convinced and had sex with multiple women, and he actually charged them $750 to boot. As you might expect one of the charges was fraud...turns out men’s right to lie to women’s out being a doctor to get them into bed is constitutionally protected free speech.
- will4274 8y agoI'm surprised. I would have expected the exchange of money to bring this little scheme out of free speech and into regulate-able commerical activity. It's no secret that people are legally allowed to lie about their profession for personal gain.
- gowld 8y agoDo you have a source? The appeals doc says Daniel Boro wasn't charged with fraud. He got away with rape because the (male) judges disagreed on the nature of consent under lies. California amended the law after the Boro case, showing there was no consitutional right to obtain sex via frauduent medical procedures. https://caselaw.findlaw.com/ca-court-of-appeal/1841426.html https://caselaw.findlaw.com/ca-court-of-appeal/1841426.html http://nysbar.com/blogs/lawstudentconnection/2013/11/rape_by_fraud_deception_or_imp.html http://nysbar.com/blogs/lawstudentconnection/2013/11/rape_by...
- newnewpdro 8y agoChiropractors already leverage the powerful marketing of a Dr. prefix without having a PhD in medicine. It's incredibly annoying. I have relatives who have become completely swindled by this crap and regurgitate unscientific nonsense that their "Dr. Salesman" chiropractor prescribed. Blood-type diets, essential oils, overpriced transparencies to hide in rooms for their calming energy. Whenever I visit home I have to listen to this shit littered with Dr. as if it's legitimizing. FML
- Retric 8y agoActors call themselves doctors etc all the time without issue. So, obviously the issue is more narrow than you’re suggesting. You can’t for example say you’re a doctor when doing so would also constitute fraud.
- mLuby 8y agoYeah but actors can also impersonate police officers (complete with working weapons and police cars) without issue. I think the key part is if you see an actor in a parking lot outside the set still in police costume, they're not going to handcuff you and do a civil forfeiture on your property.
- jcranmer 8y agoAs far as this decision is concerned, no. In the US, laws restricting speech are generally unconstitutional unless the government can demonstrate both a compelling need to restrict it and the law is sufficiently narrowly construed to actually restrict only that speech which needs to be restricted for that need. In general, prohibition of self-appellations like engineer and doctor in commercial speech is considered constitutional. In this case, the ruling found that the statute in question was broad enough to encompass more than commercial speech, and that the agency had repeatedly shown itself to believe that it did. Furthermore, it found that the use of the term "engineer," even in a commercial context, didn't inherently mislead people to believe that it referred to a certified and licensed engineer, and so the ban is overly broad. Note that if the terminology were to use specific accreditations, such as certified public accountant or registered practicing engineer, that line of argument would not work. The court concludes that only deleting the word "engineer" from two separate places in the law is necessary to conform with constitutional practice, so if the person in question had instead claimed themselves to be a "professional engineer", they would still be liable under the law. If the law were written differently, then a ban on calling oneself an engineer (or doctor) would pass constitutional muster. It might even be possible to have a constitutional law that would prohibit Dr. Oz from calling himself Dr. Oz, although I do concede that it would be a difficult construction.
- marcoperaza 8y agoThere's a difference between seeing patients and dispensing medical service, on the one hand, and posting your medical theories online, on the other. This case is about this man's behavior being firmly on the "posting theories online" side of the line.