5 ms·

A good debugger is good for quite a bit more than that. Watches, break points, performance/profiling. I actually can't believe you're hating on debuggers.

SlowRobotAhead 8y ago
It's funny to me as an embedded programmer seeing people write about how they prefer printf to actual debugging. My printf command can take MANY TIMES longer to run than most of the code that I'm trying to fix. Maybe it's a software vs hardware thing, but I would end it all if I had to work hardware without breakpoints, watches, and step-through.
- burntsushi 8y ago
  Why is it funny? And why do you not consider printf to be "actual" debugging? I mean, if printf wasn't available to me or was for some reason otherwise inconvenient, then I would look for other avenues to debug, perhaps by using a debugger! This isn't that mystifying. As I said above, this is very heavily dependent on preferred workflows and what you're working on. Long ago, I remember doing some robotics work in C, and a debugger was invaluable.
- WalterBright 8y ago
  I used to build/program embedded systems (around a 6800 uP). I'd debug using an oscilloscope, sometimes an LED attached to a pin, sometimes connecting the pin to a speaker (!). There wasn't enough EPROM space for a printf. And besides, the turnaround time for erasing/blowing an EPROM was just too long. Essentially you just get good at staring at the code and running gedanken experiments till you figure it out.
rrobukef 8y ago
I share his opinion for scientific software. I think this is because it is building an algorithm versus software. I think the coupling and scope are just too different. If your loop takes billions of iterations on gigabytes of data before returning the wrong answer, how do you debug? Breakpoints are useless because which iteration introduced the fault? The critical paths are long. Watchpoint start after you pauzed. Reverse debugging is to slow for millions of instructions. If you change the code with the REPL (other post) you invalidate your previous calculations too. Stacktraces are useless because you inline everything, and the callgraph is shallow anyways. Performance profiling needs special tools: you know the hotspot, the debugger tells you where, not why. My conclusion: A debugger is good for finding bug in data that moves, not for data that changes. opinion based on: my debug approach changes depending on the error. Prints are always the easiest solution in the scientific parts.
ufmace 8y ago
I'm leaning towards prinf/println too on Rust. I usually somewhat prefer debuggers, but I'll wait to get one set up until I find I need it. I haven't found myself wanting a debugger for Rust yet. Maybe the type checking is just that good that I don't have many bugs, maybe I'm writing enough tests for things that aren't type-checked well, maybe I haven't written anything complex enough yet. Whatever the cause, it works well enough for now. I find myself wanting debuggers more on dynamic languages where you have no idea what object types you're handling or what their properties are. Printing the whole thing gets you a pile of mostly useless mush. A debugger lets you poke at parts of it until you find something that gives you some insight into the problem. I'd also say that performance and threading problems are a different beast. Even when you have a beautiful debugger, it's not very helpful to stop one thread while you poke around at human speed. You gotta log info about what's happening somewhere and then examine it for clues after the run is done. It may take a few dozen runs to log the detail you need without gigabytes of useless mush, but that's just what it takes to get to the bottom of these types of issues.
- Jach 8y ago
  Maybe you need to try out more powerful dynamic languages? I mean even Python has 'pdb' which gives you a fairly authentic gdb experience, and you can always dir() and help() something in the REPL. For me I find myself not missing a debugger very much at all in Python code, whereas Java code of a certain size and legacy history forces me out of my preferred vim world and into Eclipse for the interactive debugging alone, the language makes it more painful to debug in other ways you can get away with in say Python. Plus I find that language culture matters. Java programmers will assume you have a big IDE and debugger and will write their code accordingly. Other language cultures do something different. Occasionally you'll get principles like "grep-friendly code" in an effort to cut across cultures but they're still not universal. Clojure is another example of a pretty decent experience, e.g. "add-watch" is built-in, it has a REPL (so I've used it to debug Java code before), and the coding culture is functional programming which has its own benefits for debugging. Common Lisp is even better, it's a system as much as a language and so the runtime itself has all the debugging capabilities that you need a heavy IDE for in simpler non-system languages. (break, compile, trace, update-instance-for-redefined-class, object field inspection, extendable print-object methods are all there part of the standard, lots of introspection and redefinition capability, and CL compilers like SBCL can give quite detailed type, argument count, typo alerts, cross-reference usage, and optimization information at compile time, still no IDE needed (though editors like emacs/vim have nice wrappers and can automate some stuff). Check out this short series: https://malisper.me/debugging-lisp-part-1-recompilation/ https://malisper.me/debugging-lisp-part-1-recompilation/ )
WalterBright 8y ago
> Watches printf > breakpoints if (condition) assert(0); then I use the debugger to tell me how it got there. > performance/profiling I use a separate tool for profiling: https://dlang.org/dmd-windows.html#switch-profile https://dlang.org/dmd-windows.html#switch-profile It's built in to the DMC++ and DMD compilers. Sometimes I mess up the code a bit filling it up with debug code, but when I finally fix it it's git to the rescue. I can be old fashioned when it comes to IDEs, but git really is a marvelous, paradigm-changing advance.
- barrkel 8y ago
  I like debuggers for things like examining variables from higher stack frames after a highly conditional break (where printf from every higher stack frame would be lost in noise), for stepping through abstractions (especially in C++, where there may be surprisingly amounts of hidden code executed in overloaded bits and pieces), and for hardware breakpoints (an approach for solving reproducible memory corruption: combine a deterministic memory allocator with memory breakpoints + counters).
  - SeanBoocock 8y ago
    This is a great comment. Most of the value I get out of using a debugger - I work in game dev - is from these, often in concert. Even before I start setting data breakpoints, though, I often find myself examining heap memory with the process paused to give myself sufficient context to do more informed exploration later. In the last year or so I've also started using Visual Studio's "action" breakpoints, a sort of runtime configurable printf, once I've identified areas of interest.

SlowRobotAhead 8y ago

It's funny to me as an embedded programmer seeing people write about how they prefer printf to actual debugging. My printf command can take MANY TIMES longer to run than most of the code that I'm trying to fix. Maybe it's a software vs hardware thing, but I would end it all if I had to work hardware without breakpoints, watches, and step-through.

burntsushi 8y ago
Why is it funny? And why do you not consider printf to be "actual" debugging? I mean, if printf wasn't available to me or was for some reason otherwise inconvenient, then I would look for other avenues to debug, perhaps by using a debugger! This isn't that mystifying. As I said above, this is very heavily dependent on preferred workflows and what you're working on. Long ago, I remember doing some robotics work in C, and a debugger was invaluable.
WalterBright 8y ago
I used to build/program embedded systems (around a 6800 uP). I'd debug using an oscilloscope, sometimes an LED attached to a pin, sometimes connecting the pin to a speaker (!). There wasn't enough EPROM space for a printf. And besides, the turnaround time for erasing/blowing an EPROM was just too long. Essentially you just get good at staring at the code and running gedanken experiments till you figure it out.

rrobukef 8y ago

I share his opinion for scientific software. I think this is because it is building an algorithm versus software. I think the coupling and scope are just too different. If your loop takes billions of iterations on gigabytes of data before returning the wrong answer, how do you debug? Breakpoints are useless because which iteration introduced the fault? The critical paths are long. Watchpoint start after you pauzed. Reverse debugging is to slow for millions of instructions. If you change the code with the REPL (other post) you invalidate your previous calculations too. Stacktraces are useless because you inline everything, and the callgraph is shallow anyways. Performance profiling needs special tools: you know the hotspot, the debugger tells you where, not why. My conclusion: A debugger is good for finding bug in data that moves, not for data that changes. opinion based on: my debug approach changes depending on the error. Prints are always the easiest solution in the scientific parts.

ufmace 8y ago

I'm leaning towards prinf/println too on Rust. I usually somewhat prefer debuggers, but I'll wait to get one set up until I find I need it. I haven't found myself wanting a debugger for Rust yet. Maybe the type checking is just that good that I don't have many bugs, maybe I'm writing enough tests for things that aren't type-checked well, maybe I haven't written anything complex enough yet. Whatever the cause, it works well enough for now. I find myself wanting debuggers more on dynamic languages where you have no idea what object types you're handling or what their properties are. Printing the whole thing gets you a pile of mostly useless mush. A debugger lets you poke at parts of it until you find something that gives you some insight into the problem. I'd also say that performance and threading problems are a different beast. Even when you have a beautiful debugger, it's not very helpful to stop one thread while you poke around at human speed. You gotta log info about what's happening somewhere and then examine it for clues after the run is done. It may take a few dozen runs to log the detail you need without gigabytes of useless mush, but that's just what it takes to get to the bottom of these types of issues.

Jach 8y ago
Maybe you need to try out more powerful dynamic languages? I mean even Python has 'pdb' which gives you a fairly authentic gdb experience, and you can always dir() and help() something in the REPL. For me I find myself not missing a debugger very much at all in Python code, whereas Java code of a certain size and legacy history forces me out of my preferred vim world and into Eclipse for the interactive debugging alone, the language makes it more painful to debug in other ways you can get away with in say Python. Plus I find that language culture matters. Java programmers will assume you have a big IDE and debugger and will write their code accordingly. Other language cultures do something different. Occasionally you'll get principles like "grep-friendly code" in an effort to cut across cultures but they're still not universal. Clojure is another example of a pretty decent experience, e.g. "add-watch" is built-in, it has a REPL (so I've used it to debug Java code before), and the coding culture is functional programming which has its own benefits for debugging. Common Lisp is even better, it's a system as much as a language and so the runtime itself has all the debugging capabilities that you need a heavy IDE for in simpler non-system languages. (break, compile, trace, update-instance-for-redefined-class, object field inspection, extendable print-object methods are all there part of the standard, lots of introspection and redefinition capability, and CL compilers like SBCL can give quite detailed type, argument count, typo alerts, cross-reference usage, and optimization information at compile time, still no IDE needed (though editors like emacs/vim have nice wrappers and can automate some stuff). Check out this short series: https://malisper.me/debugging-lisp-part-1-recompilation/ https://malisper.me/debugging-lisp-part-1-recompilation/ )

WalterBright 8y ago

> Watches printf > breakpoints if (condition) assert(0); then I use the debugger to tell me how it got there. > performance/profiling I use a separate tool for profiling: https://dlang.org/dmd-windows.html#switch-profile https://dlang.org/dmd-windows.html#switch-profile It's built in to the DMC++ and DMD compilers. Sometimes I mess up the code a bit filling it up with debug code, but when I finally fix it it's git to the rescue. I can be old fashioned when it comes to IDEs, but git really is a marvelous, paradigm-changing advance.

barrkel 8y ago
I like debuggers for things like examining variables from higher stack frames after a highly conditional break (where printf from every higher stack frame would be lost in noise), for stepping through abstractions (especially in C++, where there may be surprisingly amounts of hidden code executed in overloaded bits and pieces), and for hardware breakpoints (an approach for solving reproducible memory corruption: combine a deterministic memory allocator with memory breakpoints + counters).
- SeanBoocock 8y ago
  This is a great comment. Most of the value I get out of using a debugger - I work in game dev - is from these, often in concert. Even before I start setting data breakpoints, though, I often find myself examining heap memory with the process paused to give myself sufficient context to do more informed exploration later. In the last year or so I've also started using Visual Studio's "action" breakpoints, a sort of runtime configurable printf, once I've identified areas of interest.