5 ms·

Why Canada Will Bear the Brunt of the American War on Huawei

30 points by laurex 8y ago

blfr 8y ago
China’s economy is at a tenuous juncture in its development and that shocks potentially threaten the achievement of key goals Say what you want about Trump but he knows when he has leverage. It can hardly be lost on the Chinese that Canada, a rule of law country, is simply carrying out contractual obligations Authoritarians don't believe in the rule of law. Not just in the sense that they don't have respect for it and wouldn't implement it. They don't believe other governments actually don't have influence over the judiciary. Often for good reasons because courts are sometimes willing to bend the rules for the benefit of the government.
- latch 8y ago
  > They don't believe other governments actually don't have influence over the judiciary This doesn't strike me as a reasonable generalization. It implies too much stupidity. I think Mr Putin and Mr Xi are well educated and have a grasp of how the world works well beyond what we lay people think we know.
  - eximius 8y ago
    Sure, they understand. Then they disapprove and scoff that our leaders don't have the audacity to assert their will anyway. And, in truth, as we've learned with Trump, in many cases they do because it's harder to undo or punish his actions as fast as he can keep doing things. When there are no clear rules for enforcing the rules, we lose.
  - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
    > Mr Putin and Mr Xi are well educated and have a grasp of how the world works well beyond what we lay people think we know They’re dictators. But no man rules alone. Irrespective of how well they understand the situation, they are constrained by their sources of political power. There is no evidence those sources understand the rule of law or separation of powers. This is a common failure mode for authoritarian regimes, by the way. A competent leader forced to make incompetent decisions by an elite corroded by years of corrupt rule.
  - blfr 8y ago
    It's not stupidity. It's distrust. They don't believe there isn't some backchannel for the regular government (the executive mostly) to influence a court ruling when it really needs to.
- bassman9000 8y ago
  Authoritarians don't believe in the rule of law. But they will sadly use it as a weapon on others. They call it weakness.
Antonio123123 8y ago
There is only accumulation of power. I believe China to be a mercantile culture, that was helped by the more developed states. But instead of valuing the relations, China only values them if it can see profit. Also China values the relations if the profit of China is bigger that the profit of the other state. In the mercantilist others must be loosers, as opposed to mutual benefits when all play nice.
- JumpCrisscross 8y ago
  > I believe China to be a mercantile culture “Mercantilism is a national economic policy that is designed to maximize the exports of a nation” [1]. This is what China used to be. (Starting, mostly, with Deng Xiaoping.) Xi prioritising force projection and jingoism is a shift away from mercantilism. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercantilism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercantilism
  - Antonio123123 8y ago
    Mercantilism not only targets exports. It also tries to halt all non necessary imports, so the country retains as much value as possible. They are nationalist, and want to gain things at the expense of others all the time (I don't have first-hand experience but I believe it to be so). So when I say China is mercantilist, I am referring more to their approach to relations as a zero-sum game.
graeme 8y ago
I'm Canadian. I rather suspect China is taking action against our nationals in order to teach a lesson to others: "think twice before you try to extradite our royalty to Americans" They probably understand strongarm tactics won't work on us and are counterproductive. But, I'm sure other small countries are taking notes.
- Maskawanian 8y ago
  I really wish we would take a reciprocal foreign policy. For every one of our people they detain without legit cause, we do the same.
  - brianwawok 8y ago
    You really wish random people had to sit in jail due to a political and trade wars between two superpowers? Do you volunteer to sit in jail as one of the first victims?
  - eximius 8y ago
    They don't give a shit about their people. We do. That's not going to end well.
    - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
      > They don't give a shit about their people Beijing doesn’t care about the average Chinese. But its elites? It cares as much as any other government.
      - eximius 8y ago
        Eh, I can buy it. But how many Chinese elites can we find to arrest in North America? Aside from the fact that it's morally reprehensible...
        JumpCrisscross 8y ago
        Agree on its reprehensibility. Detaining random foreign nationals isn’t a game I want us to play.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
theredbox 8y ago
The world should have been much more assertive towards China instead the US,Japan,South Korea are fighting each other for "peanuts". Not talking about the EU in the first place that's just a union of interests where the stronger eat the weaker for breakfast and bend to China whenever they hear mandarin.
duhast 8y ago
This is how I see it: 1) US signed disarmament treaty with Iran and EU 2) US unilaterally leaves the treaty and introduces sanctions against Iran 3) Chinese company continues to sell goods to Iran 4) Executive of said company is taken to prison during flight transit in Canada and will be extradited to US where she is at risk of receiving life-long sentence The bit I don't understand is how can US impose laws that apply to non-US companies/individuals? Lets even assume this is all legal under US laws and hence Canada has no choice but to extradite this person given their bilateral extradition treaty. What I suspect we will continue to see more going forward: 1) US will continue to introduce laws that effectively apply to everyone everywhere and use extradition treaties to enforcement them 2) These laws will be exercised selectively in cases where US economic or political interest is at stake. 3) Other countries will follow. 4) This sets bad undemocratic precedence where law introduced in one country is used to prosecute people that never stepped foot on that country soil. 5) Cost and risk of doing business will increase.
- hubbins 8y ago
  Huawei/Skycom was allegedly selling US products to Iran. It’s not about selling anything to Iran.
  - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
    > Huawei/Skycom was allegedly selling US products to Iran Huawei stole a Canadian company's technology [1], markets products in America [2], has issued dollar-denominated debt [3] and then went and violated sanctions in dollar-denominated transactions. This is a far cry from extraterritorial enforcement for either the U.S. or Canada. [1] https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/former-nortel-exec-warns-against-working-with-huawei-1.1137006 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/former-nortel-exec-warns-ag... [2] https://www.huawei.com/us/ https://www.huawei.com/us/ [3] https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeanbaptiste/2018/04/26/huawei-is-under-u-s-criminal-investigation-for-illegal-iran-sales-analysis/#328e6ec0420e https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeanbaptiste/2018/04/26/huawei-...
    - 8y ago
uuuurtnccnhte 8y ago
Alot of people mentioning the "rule of law" where was it when the US and UK invaded Iraq looking for WMD that they never found? Why were there no war crimes charges brought up? It seems like western nations are always quick to invoke "the rule of" law when it suits them

30 points by laurex 8y ago

blfr 8y ago

China’s economy is at a tenuous juncture in its development and that shocks potentially threaten the achievement of key goals Say what you want about Trump but he knows when he has leverage. It can hardly be lost on the Chinese that Canada, a rule of law country, is simply carrying out contractual obligations Authoritarians don't believe in the rule of law. Not just in the sense that they don't have respect for it and wouldn't implement it. They don't believe other governments actually don't have influence over the judiciary. Often for good reasons because courts are sometimes willing to bend the rules for the benefit of the government.

latch 8y ago
> They don't believe other governments actually don't have influence over the judiciary This doesn't strike me as a reasonable generalization. It implies too much stupidity. I think Mr Putin and Mr Xi are well educated and have a grasp of how the world works well beyond what we lay people think we know.
- eximius 8y ago
  Sure, they understand. Then they disapprove and scoff that our leaders don't have the audacity to assert their will anyway. And, in truth, as we've learned with Trump, in many cases they do because it's harder to undo or punish his actions as fast as he can keep doing things. When there are no clear rules for enforcing the rules, we lose.
- JumpCrisscross 8y ago
  > Mr Putin and Mr Xi are well educated and have a grasp of how the world works well beyond what we lay people think we know They’re dictators. But no man rules alone. Irrespective of how well they understand the situation, they are constrained by their sources of political power. There is no evidence those sources understand the rule of law or separation of powers. This is a common failure mode for authoritarian regimes, by the way. A competent leader forced to make incompetent decisions by an elite corroded by years of corrupt rule.
- blfr 8y ago
  It's not stupidity. It's distrust. They don't believe there isn't some backchannel for the regular government (the executive mostly) to influence a court ruling when it really needs to.
bassman9000 8y ago
Authoritarians don't believe in the rule of law. But they will sadly use it as a weapon on others. They call it weakness.

Antonio123123 8y ago

There is only accumulation of power. I believe China to be a mercantile culture, that was helped by the more developed states. But instead of valuing the relations, China only values them if it can see profit. Also China values the relations if the profit of China is bigger that the profit of the other state. In the mercantilist others must be loosers, as opposed to mutual benefits when all play nice.

JumpCrisscross 8y ago
> I believe China to be a mercantile culture “Mercantilism is a national economic policy that is designed to maximize the exports of a nation” [1]. This is what China used to be. (Starting, mostly, with Deng Xiaoping.) Xi prioritising force projection and jingoism is a shift away from mercantilism. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercantilism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercantilism
- Antonio123123 8y ago
  Mercantilism not only targets exports. It also tries to halt all non necessary imports, so the country retains as much value as possible. They are nationalist, and want to gain things at the expense of others all the time (I don't have first-hand experience but I believe it to be so). So when I say China is mercantilist, I am referring more to their approach to relations as a zero-sum game.

graeme 8y ago

I'm Canadian. I rather suspect China is taking action against our nationals in order to teach a lesson to others: "think twice before you try to extradite our royalty to Americans" They probably understand strongarm tactics won't work on us and are counterproductive. But, I'm sure other small countries are taking notes.

Maskawanian 8y ago
I really wish we would take a reciprocal foreign policy. For every one of our people they detain without legit cause, we do the same.
- brianwawok 8y ago
  You really wish random people had to sit in jail due to a political and trade wars between two superpowers? Do you volunteer to sit in jail as one of the first victims?
- eximius 8y ago
  They don't give a shit about their people. We do. That's not going to end well.
  - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
    > They don't give a shit about their people Beijing doesn’t care about the average Chinese. But its elites? It cares as much as any other government.
    - eximius 8y ago
      Eh, I can buy it. But how many Chinese elites can we find to arrest in North America? Aside from the fact that it's morally reprehensible...
      - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
        Agree on its reprehensibility. Detaining random foreign nationals isn’t a game I want us to play.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

theredbox 8y ago

The world should have been much more assertive towards China instead the US,Japan,South Korea are fighting each other for "peanuts". Not talking about the EU in the first place that's just a union of interests where the stronger eat the weaker for breakfast and bend to China whenever they hear mandarin.

duhast 8y ago

This is how I see it: 1) US signed disarmament treaty with Iran and EU 2) US unilaterally leaves the treaty and introduces sanctions against Iran 3) Chinese company continues to sell goods to Iran 4) Executive of said company is taken to prison during flight transit in Canada and will be extradited to US where she is at risk of receiving life-long sentence The bit I don't understand is how can US impose laws that apply to non-US companies/individuals? Lets even assume this is all legal under US laws and hence Canada has no choice but to extradite this person given their bilateral extradition treaty. What I suspect we will continue to see more going forward: 1) US will continue to introduce laws that effectively apply to everyone everywhere and use extradition treaties to enforcement them 2) These laws will be exercised selectively in cases where US economic or political interest is at stake. 3) Other countries will follow. 4) This sets bad undemocratic precedence where law introduced in one country is used to prosecute people that never stepped foot on that country soil. 5) Cost and risk of doing business will increase.

hubbins 8y ago
Huawei/Skycom was allegedly selling US products to Iran. It’s not about selling anything to Iran.
- JumpCrisscross 8y ago
  > Huawei/Skycom was allegedly selling US products to Iran Huawei stole a Canadian company's technology [1], markets products in America [2], has issued dollar-denominated debt [3] and then went and violated sanctions in dollar-denominated transactions. This is a far cry from extraterritorial enforcement for either the U.S. or Canada. [1] https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/former-nortel-exec-warns-against-working-with-huawei-1.1137006 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/former-nortel-exec-warns-ag... [2] https://www.huawei.com/us/ https://www.huawei.com/us/ [3] https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeanbaptiste/2018/04/26/huawei-is-under-u-s-criminal-investigation-for-illegal-iran-sales-analysis/#328e6ec0420e https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeanbaptiste/2018/04/26/huawei-...
  - 8y ago

uuuurtnccnhte 8y ago

Alot of people mentioning the "rule of law" where was it when the US and UK invaded Iraq looking for WMD that they never found? Why were there no war crimes charges brought up? It seems like western nations are always quick to invoke "the rule of" law when it suits them