6 ms·

I never really had a strong opinion on mining until I drove through Wyoming and northern Nevada. I knew it wasn't ecologically friendly, but it wasn't happening

I never really had a strong opinion on mining until I drove through Wyoming and northern Nevada. I knew it wasn't ecologically friendly, but it wasn't happening near me so I never saw much impact. But after driving through there and seeing entire mountains halfway destroyed as the mining crews work their way through it... in a few more years, that mountain won't even exist anymore. Watching humans take an entire mountain down rock-by-rock is a humbling experience.

ip26 8y ago
The worst part is humans only want a small fraction of the mountain, so the whole thing is chewed up and spat out into the land around the mountain. It would be a little better if we actually had a use for the whole mountain. The tar sands come to mind. The entire forest above the sands is literally scraped off the face of the earth, the sands removed, the oil removed from the sands, and then everything aside from the oil is left behind in huge swaths of desolate waste.
- Danieru 8y ago
  Odd wording to describe a replanted forest as "desolate waste". If anything one may suspect you are not being fully honest to leave out the "then they spent millions to try and return to the forest to its original state."
  - captainperl 8y ago
    > Odd wording to describe a replanted forest as "desolate waste". I know you're trolling, but planting trees doesn't replace an entire ecosystem. Check out a palm oil plantation sometimes for what a desolate forest looks like.
    - Danieru 8y ago
      Ah, so you were aware that the forests are replanted. You choose instead not to provide others with this information or inform that, but rather to editorialize. Now someone has asked you to justify how a replanted green forest is "desolate". Please keep on topic, we are talking about the tar sands not pal oil. Yes I know both have oil in the name but please understand they are not the same oil. Please for your own safety do not drink the tar sands. Now back to your statement. Do you retract your claim of desolation? Or can you provide any evidence to support your position. Please do not reference palm oil in relation to the tar sands. No palm trees grow in Fort Mac.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - greglindahl 8y ago
        Did you look at the usernames? Different users.
    - AnimalMuppet 8y ago
      First: No, I'm pretty sure that Danieru was not trolling. Second, HN guidelines say that one should not accuse someone else of trolling. It almost never leads to a decent discussion.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
  - ip26 8y ago
    When Alberta’s oil sands industry marked its 40th anniversary in 2007, one statistic stood out among the many that measure economic success and environmental impact: Not a single acre of mined land had been certified as being “reclaimed” to government standards. Lee Foote, a University of Alberta wetlands ecologist who has worked with the tar sands industry and advised the Alberta government on wetland reclamation policies, agrees that reclamation has so far been done more for public show than to create viable ecosystems. “The mindset is to throw big dollars at engineering designer wetlands that are green but not nearly as functional as what was there in the past,” says Foote. “The main aim is to get the social license that is needed for these companies to continue operating.” -- https://e360.yale.edu/features/on_ravaged_tar_sands_lands_big_challenges_for_reclamation https://e360.yale.edu/features/on_ravaged_tar_sands_lands_bi...
    - specialist 8y ago
      Same kabuki happens with developers & timber vs salmon fisheries. One county in my state even bothers with monitoring, enforcement. Not a single issued citation (fine) was ever collected (during the study period). Maddening.
assblaster 8y ago
The alternative is having less minerals available and thus higher prices, which hurts all social strata. I think mining is a necessity to exploit all natural resource opportunities, very similar to how I would view solar and wind installations being built in "nice" areas like off the coast of Massachusetts.
- cheschire 8y ago
  I suspect some people consider ecological destruction as impacting all social strata as well.
- freehunter 8y ago
  I agree, mining is necessary. But it's a necessary evil. And like with all necessary evils, it'd be pretty nice if we could do our best to make sure we can stop committing the evil once it stops being necessary. It's hard to argue that coal mining is still necessary rather than merely convenient.
  - hackerman12345 8y ago
    It is perhaps necessary as Germany now has to import coal. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-30/germany-closes-last-coal-mine-despite-decades-of-supplies-needed https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-30/germany-c...
    - freehunter 8y ago
      I guess I should amend my statement: is coal use still necessary, or merely convenient? If we're using coal, it's necessary to mine it. The upstream question is, is it still necessary to use coal beyond the very boring argument of "it would cost money to replace coal"? I'm not looking for an answer to this question, as I don't own any coal mines or coal power plants. Just expressing general dissatisfaction with humanity's destructive-but-convenient habits.
      - crumpets 8y ago
alacombe 8y ago
How about seeing mountains being destroyed by Nature alone over the course of hundreds of millions of years ? Nature is not so beautiful if you consider it destroyed, eradicated, 99.9% of life which ever existed (and will destroy mankind) over the course of History.
- freehunter 8y ago
  Of course nature is destructive. But there's nothing we can really do about that. There is something we can do about humans being destructive. The difference between humans and the rest of nature is that we have the ability to choose our actions, these choices are not made for us already. I've never understood the argument that since [bad thing] happens, [more bad things] are justified. But judge, since nature kills humans all the time you can't possibly charge me with murder...
  - alacombe 8y ago
    How about all the good, technology, societal advancement, reduction of poverty which required the destruction if those mountains to mine the mattress to feel it ? Also, I'm sure you can make find some negatives in the lithium / PV / wind industries which are so vehemently pushed forward around here.
    - freehunter 8y ago
      Again, you're arguing that since [bad thing] happens, [more bad things] are justified. Stopping coal mining today isn't going to undo all of that progress you talked about. It already happened. And the progress only required energy, not coal. Coal was just the energy source that was available at the time. We have other energy sources. Changing the argument to the damage caused by lithium mines is just a distraction. My argument isn't against coal, it's against unnecessary evils. It would take a mighty strong mind to honestly argue that solar and wind power is more evil than coal. I'm going to bow out of this argument now as I'm not actually looking to have my opinion changed to a more pro-coal stance in 2018.
  - frutiger 8y ago
johnwyles 8y ago
had the same epiphany driving from CA to WA through OR. Oregon allows logging to clear-cut - meaning they don't pluck 1 tree among 5 to cut but instead just lop entire mountainsides down like someone getting a buzz cut.
- theparanoid 8y ago
  California has many many clear-cuts. Just not directly on I-5.
eigenvector 8y ago
Even worse than the act of disassembling a mountain is the processing of all of that rock - which concentrates huge amounts of harmful materials that would never appear in such great concentration and quantity naturally - and subsequently leaving it there permanently in massive tailing ponds that are one dam breach from wiping out millenia-old ecosystems downstream. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Polley_mine_disaster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Polley_mine_disaster
- crumpets 8y ago
  >and subsequently leaving it there permanently in massive tailing ponds Not permanent. They can be reclaimed, but that usually doesn't happen for many years until after the end of life for the mine.
  - ghouse 8y ago
    Reclamation does not un-concentrate the materials found in the impoundment. Typically a "Mine Plan of Operations" which includes the reclamation plan is a contouring of the topography and vegetation. Some mines require indefinite groundwater treatment due to leaching from tailings ponds or other mine activity. The cost responsibility for this _indefinite_ process is sometimes borne by the state following bankruptcy of a mine.

ip26 8y ago

The worst part is humans only want a small fraction of the mountain, so the whole thing is chewed up and spat out into the land around the mountain. It would be a little better if we actually had a use for the whole mountain. The tar sands come to mind. The entire forest above the sands is literally scraped off the face of the earth, the sands removed, the oil removed from the sands, and then everything aside from the oil is left behind in huge swaths of desolate waste.

Danieru 8y ago
Odd wording to describe a replanted forest as "desolate waste". If anything one may suspect you are not being fully honest to leave out the "then they spent millions to try and return to the forest to its original state."
- captainperl 8y ago
  > Odd wording to describe a replanted forest as "desolate waste". I know you're trolling, but planting trees doesn't replace an entire ecosystem. Check out a palm oil plantation sometimes for what a desolate forest looks like.
  - Danieru 8y ago
    Ah, so you were aware that the forests are replanted. You choose instead not to provide others with this information or inform that, but rather to editorialize. Now someone has asked you to justify how a replanted green forest is "desolate". Please keep on topic, we are talking about the tar sands not pal oil. Yes I know both have oil in the name but please understand they are not the same oil. Please for your own safety do not drink the tar sands. Now back to your statement. Do you retract your claim of desolation? Or can you provide any evidence to support your position. Please do not reference palm oil in relation to the tar sands. No palm trees grow in Fort Mac.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - greglindahl 8y ago
      Did you look at the usernames? Different users.
  - AnimalMuppet 8y ago
    First: No, I'm pretty sure that Danieru was not trolling. Second, HN guidelines say that one should not accuse someone else of trolling. It almost never leads to a decent discussion.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
- ip26 8y ago
  When Alberta’s oil sands industry marked its 40th anniversary in 2007, one statistic stood out among the many that measure economic success and environmental impact: Not a single acre of mined land had been certified as being “reclaimed” to government standards. Lee Foote, a University of Alberta wetlands ecologist who has worked with the tar sands industry and advised the Alberta government on wetland reclamation policies, agrees that reclamation has so far been done more for public show than to create viable ecosystems. “The mindset is to throw big dollars at engineering designer wetlands that are green but not nearly as functional as what was there in the past,” says Foote. “The main aim is to get the social license that is needed for these companies to continue operating.” -- https://e360.yale.edu/features/on_ravaged_tar_sands_lands_big_challenges_for_reclamation https://e360.yale.edu/features/on_ravaged_tar_sands_lands_bi...
  - specialist 8y ago
    Same kabuki happens with developers & timber vs salmon fisheries. One county in my state even bothers with monitoring, enforcement. Not a single issued citation (fine) was ever collected (during the study period). Maddening.

assblaster 8y ago

The alternative is having less minerals available and thus higher prices, which hurts all social strata. I think mining is a necessity to exploit all natural resource opportunities, very similar to how I would view solar and wind installations being built in "nice" areas like off the coast of Massachusetts.

cheschire 8y ago
I suspect some people consider ecological destruction as impacting all social strata as well.
freehunter 8y ago
I agree, mining is necessary. But it's a necessary evil. And like with all necessary evils, it'd be pretty nice if we could do our best to make sure we can stop committing the evil once it stops being necessary. It's hard to argue that coal mining is still necessary rather than merely convenient.
- hackerman12345 8y ago
  It is perhaps necessary as Germany now has to import coal. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-30/germany-closes-last-coal-mine-despite-decades-of-supplies-needed https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-30/germany-c...
  - freehunter 8y ago
    I guess I should amend my statement: is coal use still necessary, or merely convenient? If we're using coal, it's necessary to mine it. The upstream question is, is it still necessary to use coal beyond the very boring argument of "it would cost money to replace coal"? I'm not looking for an answer to this question, as I don't own any coal mines or coal power plants. Just expressing general dissatisfaction with humanity's destructive-but-convenient habits.
    - crumpets 8y ago

alacombe 8y ago

How about seeing mountains being destroyed by Nature alone over the course of hundreds of millions of years ? Nature is not so beautiful if you consider it destroyed, eradicated, 99.9% of life which ever existed (and will destroy mankind) over the course of History.

freehunter 8y ago
Of course nature is destructive. But there's nothing we can really do about that. There is something we can do about humans being destructive. The difference between humans and the rest of nature is that we have the ability to choose our actions, these choices are not made for us already. I've never understood the argument that since [bad thing] happens, [more bad things] are justified. But judge, since nature kills humans all the time you can't possibly charge me with murder...
- alacombe 8y ago
  How about all the good, technology, societal advancement, reduction of poverty which required the destruction if those mountains to mine the mattress to feel it ? Also, I'm sure you can make find some negatives in the lithium / PV / wind industries which are so vehemently pushed forward around here.
  - freehunter 8y ago
    Again, you're arguing that since [bad thing] happens, [more bad things] are justified. Stopping coal mining today isn't going to undo all of that progress you talked about. It already happened. And the progress only required energy, not coal. Coal was just the energy source that was available at the time. We have other energy sources. Changing the argument to the damage caused by lithium mines is just a distraction. My argument isn't against coal, it's against unnecessary evils. It would take a mighty strong mind to honestly argue that solar and wind power is more evil than coal. I'm going to bow out of this argument now as I'm not actually looking to have my opinion changed to a more pro-coal stance in 2018.
- frutiger 8y ago

johnwyles 8y ago

had the same epiphany driving from CA to WA through OR. Oregon allows logging to clear-cut - meaning they don't pluck 1 tree among 5 to cut but instead just lop entire mountainsides down like someone getting a buzz cut.

theparanoid 8y ago
California has many many clear-cuts. Just not directly on I-5.

eigenvector 8y ago

Even worse than the act of disassembling a mountain is the processing of all of that rock - which concentrates huge amounts of harmful materials that would never appear in such great concentration and quantity naturally - and subsequently leaving it there permanently in massive tailing ponds that are one dam breach from wiping out millenia-old ecosystems downstream. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Polley_mine_disaster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Polley_mine_disaster

crumpets 8y ago
>and subsequently leaving it there permanently in massive tailing ponds Not permanent. They can be reclaimed, but that usually doesn't happen for many years until after the end of life for the mine.
- ghouse 8y ago
  Reclamation does not un-concentrate the materials found in the impoundment. Typically a "Mine Plan of Operations" which includes the reclamation plan is a contouring of the topography and vegetation. Some mines require indefinite groundwater treatment due to leaching from tailings ponds or other mine activity. The cost responsibility for this _indefinite_ process is sometimes borne by the state following bankruptcy of a mine.