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For example, I find that technical interviews for experienced developers tend to be harder, which makes me infer an "up or out" culture. A dev with 20 years of

For example, I find that technical interviews for experienced developers tend to be harder, which makes me infer an "up or out" culture. A dev with 20 years of experience isn't even evaluated for normal individual contributor roles, instead they are chief code wizard or unqualified. Younger devs, especially college hires, are given more leeway to train on the job and grow into their level of aptitude and interest. A similarly intelligent and driven middle aged dev won't be offered the same chances.

user5994461 8y ago
What do you recommend to handle that? I find it difficult to hire senior developers for junior positions with the salary that goes with it. The biggest obstacle to middle age workers who are shifting career is to be unable or unwilling to take the paycut and downsides that come with a fresh start.
- ben_w 8y ago
  Ironically I would be fine with that but the recruitment agents (and everyone else) kept telling me to aim high.
  - mtnGoat 8y ago
    The higher offer you get, the more the recruiter gets paid. Consider the interests of the advice giver.
    - user5994461 8y ago
      It's a strong red flag that you are seriously underpaid if the recruiter is insisting on asking for more. The recruiter has little interest in you being paid more. He's strongly incentivized to push candidates toward the average of the company. Going over average is risking the company to bail out, too expensive. Going under average is undermining your credibility and leaving commission on the table.
- humanrebar 8y ago
  > I find it difficult to hire senior developers for junior positions with the salary that goes with it. Make the offer. If they turn it down, let them know they can change their minds later. I always tell engineers looking for jobs that saying "no" is the employer's job. It goes the other way too. Offer the engineer the associate engineer job (or whatever the title is). Let them counteroffer or decide it's a bad fit.
  - user5994461 8y ago
    I find it difficult to handle in practice. That requires to adjust the interview and the rating, to conclude that the guy should join as a junior, instead of being rejected. But there is no shortage of new graduates and juniors with too little experience. What if the company already stopped hiring juniors because they are too many and there are not enough senior to train them? We have no job to offer at that level, it's not about age.
    - humanrebar 8y ago
      I recommend it at least once a month. I don't know why copying the candidate info to another req should be difficult compared to the rest of the interview and recruiting process. If you don't have junior level openings, don't offer the job, clearly.
  - rabidrat 8y ago
    Then the risk is that they take the job, but only for 6-12 months, and then leave just when they're starting to become productive with the new tech and your environment.
    - humanrebar 8y ago
      Presumably they would ramp up their pay and responsibilities according to their development. If they're only worth introductory pay and responsibilities 12 months in, let them go take a pay raise elsewhere. The attitude that pay only goes up incrementally year to year is fairly infounded. The curve should be steeper six months to three years in, depending on you industry and stack. Organizations should also optimize their tech for onboarding efficiency. I rarely see that enter the discussion other than broadly: "It's easier to find JS developers."
nikanj 8y ago
I think there’s an element of expectation there. The college hire might grow to be a grand wizard in 10 years, and become a massive asset to the company. It is still possible the older person is going to become a wizard later, but the question is: if they have it in them, why aren’t they a wizard already? College hires are seen as unscratched lottery tickets, older workers are seen as known variables. I’m not saying this is fair or clever, but this seems to be a part of it.
- lowercased 8y ago
  > but the question is: if they have it in them, why aren’t they a wizard already? An aspect of this thinking is that people don't always know how to identify those 'wizards' if they can only evaluate someone against the company's own internal tech/lingo. Someone very well might be a 'wizard' - demonstrably so with experience on visible projects. But if the interviewing staff can't parse out those skills in to something they grok, there's still a mismatch. Another way of putting this: I've seen people in companies who were considered 'wizards' because they could do everything 'the company way', even though the 'company way' was demonstrable and horrifically both inefficient and insecure. Boat-rockers were not welcomed, regardless of the potential for positive impact.
  - pdimitar 8y ago
    I think that's one of the very crucial elements of the ever-so-mythical "cultural fit": namely that most companies hire people that look like the median value of all employees already hired. They often don't seem to look for the best they can find.
- krapp 8y ago
  >but the question is: if they have it in them, why aren’t they a wizard already? Not everyone started in college, or started college at eighteen.
- auxym 8y ago
  > The college hire might grow to be a grand wizard in 10 years, and become a massive asset to the company. I'm not sure if employers are aware of this, but people staying at companies over 10 years are getting exceedingly rare.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

user5994461 8y ago

What do you recommend to handle that? I find it difficult to hire senior developers for junior positions with the salary that goes with it. The biggest obstacle to middle age workers who are shifting career is to be unable or unwilling to take the paycut and downsides that come with a fresh start.

ben_w 8y ago
Ironically I would be fine with that but the recruitment agents (and everyone else) kept telling me to aim high.
- mtnGoat 8y ago
  The higher offer you get, the more the recruiter gets paid. Consider the interests of the advice giver.
  - user5994461 8y ago
    It's a strong red flag that you are seriously underpaid if the recruiter is insisting on asking for more. The recruiter has little interest in you being paid more. He's strongly incentivized to push candidates toward the average of the company. Going over average is risking the company to bail out, too expensive. Going under average is undermining your credibility and leaving commission on the table.
humanrebar 8y ago
> I find it difficult to hire senior developers for junior positions with the salary that goes with it. Make the offer. If they turn it down, let them know they can change their minds later. I always tell engineers looking for jobs that saying "no" is the employer's job. It goes the other way too. Offer the engineer the associate engineer job (or whatever the title is). Let them counteroffer or decide it's a bad fit.
- user5994461 8y ago
  I find it difficult to handle in practice. That requires to adjust the interview and the rating, to conclude that the guy should join as a junior, instead of being rejected. But there is no shortage of new graduates and juniors with too little experience. What if the company already stopped hiring juniors because they are too many and there are not enough senior to train them? We have no job to offer at that level, it's not about age.
  - humanrebar 8y ago
    I recommend it at least once a month. I don't know why copying the candidate info to another req should be difficult compared to the rest of the interview and recruiting process. If you don't have junior level openings, don't offer the job, clearly.
- rabidrat 8y ago
  Then the risk is that they take the job, but only for 6-12 months, and then leave just when they're starting to become productive with the new tech and your environment.
  - humanrebar 8y ago
    Presumably they would ramp up their pay and responsibilities according to their development. If they're only worth introductory pay and responsibilities 12 months in, let them go take a pay raise elsewhere. The attitude that pay only goes up incrementally year to year is fairly infounded. The curve should be steeper six months to three years in, depending on you industry and stack. Organizations should also optimize their tech for onboarding efficiency. I rarely see that enter the discussion other than broadly: "It's easier to find JS developers."

nikanj 8y ago

I think there’s an element of expectation there. The college hire might grow to be a grand wizard in 10 years, and become a massive asset to the company. It is still possible the older person is going to become a wizard later, but the question is: if they have it in them, why aren’t they a wizard already? College hires are seen as unscratched lottery tickets, older workers are seen as known variables. I’m not saying this is fair or clever, but this seems to be a part of it.

lowercased 8y ago
> but the question is: if they have it in them, why aren’t they a wizard already? An aspect of this thinking is that people don't always know how to identify those 'wizards' if they can only evaluate someone against the company's own internal tech/lingo. Someone very well might be a 'wizard' - demonstrably so with experience on visible projects. But if the interviewing staff can't parse out those skills in to something they grok, there's still a mismatch. Another way of putting this: I've seen people in companies who were considered 'wizards' because they could do everything 'the company way', even though the 'company way' was demonstrable and horrifically both inefficient and insecure. Boat-rockers were not welcomed, regardless of the potential for positive impact.
- pdimitar 8y ago
  I think that's one of the very crucial elements of the ever-so-mythical "cultural fit": namely that most companies hire people that look like the median value of all employees already hired. They often don't seem to look for the best they can find.
krapp 8y ago
>but the question is: if they have it in them, why aren’t they a wizard already? Not everyone started in college, or started college at eighteen.
auxym 8y ago
> The college hire might grow to be a grand wizard in 10 years, and become a massive asset to the company. I'm not sure if employers are aware of this, but people staying at companies over 10 years are getting exceedingly rare.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]