3 ms·

Does this conspiracy exist despite the fact that there are both more libertarian and more Marxist philosophers than you can shake a stick at? And are you sure t

Does this conspiracy exist despite the fact that there are both more libertarian and more Marxist philosophers than you can shake a stick at? And are you sure that you intended to say a conspiracy (as in, a coordinated movement among researchers) rather than peer pressure against challenging prevailing orthodoxies? Either way, the "orthodoxy" of patriarchy isn't one of them. In fact, the presence of positivist and liberal philosophers in academic philosophy is far, far greater than the presence of heterodox economists (think Marxians, neo-Ricardians post-Keynesians and Sraffians) in economics. The rejection of certain ideas actually seems to be much more of a problem in public media in which figures such as Slavoj Zizek can no longer write for papers like The Guardian.

leereeves 8y ago
I was referring to "patriarchy" and related ideas, where political pressure trumps science and ends academic careers if anyone expresses unpopular ideas. And you claim "the orthodoxy of patriarchy is not one of them"? I find it hard to believe you aren't familiar with stories from Google, CERN, Harvard, etc, etc where people were driven out for questioning the theory that patriarchy is solely responsible for the differences in careers between men and women.
- claudiawerner 8y ago
  People being kicked out from their jobs for questioning orthodoxies in society isn't nearly the same problem as philosophers being ejected from the field for questioning it. I'd also be cautious about saying the stories from Google for instance (all I can think of is Damore) were simply trying to spark genuine debate on the matter. Phrasing is, of course, also important, just as a professor saying "I'll give you an A if you sleep with me" to a student is different from him saying (in a news op-ed or such) "I don't think it's wrong to sleep with students in exchange for grades". Even most libertarians draw some line between locutionary and illocutionary freedoms of speech. So while it may be a problem (though I'm skeptical), it's not the problem I was discussing. Academia rightfully tries to hold itself to the standard of free inquiry (if in good faith), but Google and Harvard have no such obligation, even to themselves. I think we probably disagree on whether there should be such an obligation.
  - leereeves 8y ago
    I never said philosophers. They're free to say what they want because few people pay much attention to what they say. You included social science in your earlier comment and I was discussing that field specifically. The overlap between "orthodoxies in society" and orthodoxies in that field is so complete that research is largely agenda-driven and dictated by politics. And isn't Harvard academia? Isn't Google in a position to restrict free inquiry both inside and outside academia? Perhaps we do disagree about whether there should be an obligation to allow free expression. You may have found its restriction temporarily comfortable; perhaps you're even glad that people who disagree with you weren't allowed to speak in those cases. But the backlash against such restriction helped lead to the election of Trump. When we abandon liberal values we return to the chaos of no-holds-barred fights for power.
    - claudiawerner 8y ago
      Simply because an area of study and society share the same orthodoxies, I wouldn't say that's sufficient to qualify as research being agenda-driven, though maybe you could say there's a pressure to operate under a certain agenda, all sciences face the same in that scientists must first decide what to study before they study it, and as such based on the probabilities they can reckon with (being clever people) they can tell if something will lead to a "good" or a "bad" result. In fact, a recent study of submissions in Nature found that very few actually began with a hypothesis, and instead the research was exploratory. So I don't think there's a direct causal connection, and in fact it could also be said that results from social sciences have influenced the political climate in turn, though the education system. It's clearly a dialectical relationship. Harvard may be academia, but I got the impression you were talking about people being ejected not for coming out with a paper that challenges the orthodoxies of social justice (of which there are many, just yesterday I read part of a PhD which argued that many forms of hate speech should not be restricted in a liberal state) but rather something else outside of the academic process. I can't say I'm very much in favour of liberalism in general, and I don't think that restrictions on some speech lead to tyranny as it's frequently alleged they would. One need not be a trusting citizen to hold this position, and I see no reason why the state (or an organization, of course) should not be very opinionated about what it allows and what it does not. The question "what if they start banning the kind of things you say?" is a moot point when I'm not arguing for such a ban. Just as any restriction on speech might be uncomfortable for you, only some are uncomfortable for me. You will protest when Harvard starts kicking people out for left-wing or right-wing views, but I'll only protest when they start kicking people out for left-wing views. I make no secret of this bias, and I think the obsession with being as abstract and neutral in general has taken a lot of force out of arguments for how we ought to run society.

leereeves 8y ago

I was referring to "patriarchy" and related ideas, where political pressure trumps science and ends academic careers if anyone expresses unpopular ideas. And you claim "the orthodoxy of patriarchy is not one of them"? I find it hard to believe you aren't familiar with stories from Google, CERN, Harvard, etc, etc where people were driven out for questioning the theory that patriarchy is solely responsible for the differences in careers between men and women.

claudiawerner 8y ago
People being kicked out from their jobs for questioning orthodoxies in society isn't nearly the same problem as philosophers being ejected from the field for questioning it. I'd also be cautious about saying the stories from Google for instance (all I can think of is Damore) were simply trying to spark genuine debate on the matter. Phrasing is, of course, also important, just as a professor saying "I'll give you an A if you sleep with me" to a student is different from him saying (in a news op-ed or such) "I don't think it's wrong to sleep with students in exchange for grades". Even most libertarians draw some line between locutionary and illocutionary freedoms of speech. So while it may be a problem (though I'm skeptical), it's not the problem I was discussing. Academia rightfully tries to hold itself to the standard of free inquiry (if in good faith), but Google and Harvard have no such obligation, even to themselves. I think we probably disagree on whether there should be such an obligation.
- leereeves 8y ago
  I never said philosophers. They're free to say what they want because few people pay much attention to what they say. You included social science in your earlier comment and I was discussing that field specifically. The overlap between "orthodoxies in society" and orthodoxies in that field is so complete that research is largely agenda-driven and dictated by politics. And isn't Harvard academia? Isn't Google in a position to restrict free inquiry both inside and outside academia? Perhaps we do disagree about whether there should be an obligation to allow free expression. You may have found its restriction temporarily comfortable; perhaps you're even glad that people who disagree with you weren't allowed to speak in those cases. But the backlash against such restriction helped lead to the election of Trump. When we abandon liberal values we return to the chaos of no-holds-barred fights for power.
  - claudiawerner 8y ago
    Simply because an area of study and society share the same orthodoxies, I wouldn't say that's sufficient to qualify as research being agenda-driven, though maybe you could say there's a pressure to operate under a certain agenda, all sciences face the same in that scientists must first decide what to study before they study it, and as such based on the probabilities they can reckon with (being clever people) they can tell if something will lead to a "good" or a "bad" result. In fact, a recent study of submissions in Nature found that very few actually began with a hypothesis, and instead the research was exploratory. So I don't think there's a direct causal connection, and in fact it could also be said that results from social sciences have influenced the political climate in turn, though the education system. It's clearly a dialectical relationship. Harvard may be academia, but I got the impression you were talking about people being ejected not for coming out with a paper that challenges the orthodoxies of social justice (of which there are many, just yesterday I read part of a PhD which argued that many forms of hate speech should not be restricted in a liberal state) but rather something else outside of the academic process. I can't say I'm very much in favour of liberalism in general, and I don't think that restrictions on some speech lead to tyranny as it's frequently alleged they would. One need not be a trusting citizen to hold this position, and I see no reason why the state (or an organization, of course) should not be very opinionated about what it allows and what it does not. The question "what if they start banning the kind of things you say?" is a moot point when I'm not arguing for such a ban. Just as any restriction on speech might be uncomfortable for you, only some are uncomfortable for me. You will protest when Harvard starts kicking people out for left-wing or right-wing views, but I'll only protest when they start kicking people out for left-wing views. I make no secret of this bias, and I think the obsession with being as abstract and neutral in general has taken a lot of force out of arguments for how we ought to run society.