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MasterCard and Visa are though. If you note elsewhere in the thread, it’s basically on their request that a lot of people have been banned.

by Tehnix 8y ago

briandear 8y ago
However, sites could accept IBAN transfers, Diner’s Club, Bank drafts, Amex, Discover, JCB, Apple Pay (Apple Pay Cash)... People could even use Transferwise. The are a lot of ways to not have to accept MC or Visa.
- Tehnix 8y ago
  That's about as real an alternative as if I said you could just send me a mail instead of sending me an email. > IBAN transfers...Transferwise Obviously incredibly slow and a lot of work. > Diner’s Club, Amex, Discover, JCB Haven't seen these in Europe. > Apple Pay (Apple Pay Cash) Limited to banks that support it. In e.g. Denmark, that's only two of the minor ones, meaning far from the majority of people.
  - SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
    You haven't seen AMEX in Europe? I've had one for years and used it all over Europe with zero problems whatsoever.
    - prepend 8y ago
      Your observation doesn’t change that OP hasn’t seen it. Amex is a small card processor. According to the Nilson report [0], Visa and MasterCard made up 80% of global transaction dollar amount in 2016. Amex, Discover and JCB combined made up 5%. You may know of Amex but they are a very small card, especially outside of the US. [0] https://nilsonreport.com/upload/issues/1109_6392.pdf https://nilsonreport.com/upload/issues/1109_6392.pdf
- dingaling 8y ago
  Even six years ago when I was shopping around to buy some Bitcoins it was already impossible to use Transferwise and most banks had blocked transfers to known cryptocurrency exchanges. When the financial industry wants something ostracised they are quick to move in the same direction.
mrep 8y ago
MasterCard and Visa, 2 seperate companies in the same space are "monopolies"? You literally just proved yourself wrong.
- rlonstein 8y ago
  The words 'oligopoly', 'cartel', and 'syndicate' are more appropriate.
- judge2020 8y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligopoly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligopoly
- projektfu 8y ago
  Sometimes people say "monopoly" when they mean "cartel". Are you arguing that these companies do not have substantial market power compared to more competitive markets or are you just trying to distract from the discussion with an argument over definitions? Do we see Mastercard and Visa competing on price (e.g. interchange rates)?
  - mrep 8y ago
    Having 4 main companies (mastercard, visa, discover, and american express) doesn't make you a monopoly or cartel. Obviously, they do have more market power than purely competitive environments but they do compete a lot on rewards which cut into the profitability of those interchange rates. I cannot find any source to measure the interchange fees - rewards profitability but I did find one that shows most of their profits don't come from those but instead interest rates [0] and I'd bet they don't make so much after the rewards (I get minimum 1% cash back on my cards and sometimes up to 5%). [0]: https://www.fool.com/credit-cards/2017/04/13/this-is-how-credit-card-companies-hauled-in-163-bi.aspx https://www.fool.com/credit-cards/2017/04/13/this-is-how-cre...
    - projektfu 8y ago
      Rewards are entirely paid for by higher interchange rates. If a card is paying a 1% reward of some sort, it is also costing the merchant at least 1% more than non-reward cards at the interchange level. A lot of this is hidden by services like Stripe and Square that have flat fees for merchants (which are higher than any interchange fee) and also by processing ISOs that hide the interchange rates in their own synthetic flat fees. Nevertheless, the interchange rates are easily googled and differ somewhat based on merchant industry and size (market power again). Convenience stores successfully banded together and negotiated a lower rate for their industry. National-scale grocery chains also pay less. Again, not an example of a competitive market. The most effective means to cap rates has been legislation (e.g. the Durbin amendment and efforts in the EU.) because of the cartel-like behavior of the market participants to keep prices high and compete on "features".

MasterCard and Visa are though. If you note elsewhere in the thread, it’s basically on their request that a lot of people have been banned.

by Tehnix 8y ago

MasterCard and Visa are though. If you note elsewhere in the thread, it’s basically on their request that a lot of people have been banned.

briandear 8y ago

However, sites could accept IBAN transfers, Diner’s Club, Bank drafts, Amex, Discover, JCB, Apple Pay (Apple Pay Cash)... People could even use Transferwise. The are a lot of ways to not have to accept MC or Visa.

Tehnix 8y ago
That's about as real an alternative as if I said you could just send me a mail instead of sending me an email. > IBAN transfers...Transferwise Obviously incredibly slow and a lot of work. > Diner’s Club, Amex, Discover, JCB Haven't seen these in Europe. > Apple Pay (Apple Pay Cash) Limited to banks that support it. In e.g. Denmark, that's only two of the minor ones, meaning far from the majority of people.
- SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
  You haven't seen AMEX in Europe? I've had one for years and used it all over Europe with zero problems whatsoever.
  - prepend 8y ago
    Your observation doesn’t change that OP hasn’t seen it. Amex is a small card processor. According to the Nilson report [0], Visa and MasterCard made up 80% of global transaction dollar amount in 2016. Amex, Discover and JCB combined made up 5%. You may know of Amex but they are a very small card, especially outside of the US. [0] https://nilsonreport.com/upload/issues/1109_6392.pdf https://nilsonreport.com/upload/issues/1109_6392.pdf
dingaling 8y ago
Even six years ago when I was shopping around to buy some Bitcoins it was already impossible to use Transferwise and most banks had blocked transfers to known cryptocurrency exchanges. When the financial industry wants something ostracised they are quick to move in the same direction.

mrep 8y ago

MasterCard and Visa, 2 seperate companies in the same space are "monopolies"? You literally just proved yourself wrong.

rlonstein 8y ago
The words 'oligopoly', 'cartel', and 'syndicate' are more appropriate.
judge2020 8y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligopoly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligopoly
projektfu 8y ago
Sometimes people say "monopoly" when they mean "cartel". Are you arguing that these companies do not have substantial market power compared to more competitive markets or are you just trying to distract from the discussion with an argument over definitions? Do we see Mastercard and Visa competing on price (e.g. interchange rates)?
- mrep 8y ago
  Having 4 main companies (mastercard, visa, discover, and american express) doesn't make you a monopoly or cartel. Obviously, they do have more market power than purely competitive environments but they do compete a lot on rewards which cut into the profitability of those interchange rates. I cannot find any source to measure the interchange fees - rewards profitability but I did find one that shows most of their profits don't come from those but instead interest rates [0] and I'd bet they don't make so much after the rewards (I get minimum 1% cash back on my cards and sometimes up to 5%). [0]: https://www.fool.com/credit-cards/2017/04/13/this-is-how-credit-card-companies-hauled-in-163-bi.aspx https://www.fool.com/credit-cards/2017/04/13/this-is-how-cre...
  - projektfu 8y ago
    Rewards are entirely paid for by higher interchange rates. If a card is paying a 1% reward of some sort, it is also costing the merchant at least 1% more than non-reward cards at the interchange level. A lot of this is hidden by services like Stripe and Square that have flat fees for merchants (which are higher than any interchange fee) and also by processing ISOs that hide the interchange rates in their own synthetic flat fees. Nevertheless, the interchange rates are easily googled and differ somewhat based on merchant industry and size (market power again). Convenience stores successfully banded together and negotiated a lower rate for their industry. National-scale grocery chains also pay less. Again, not an example of a competitive market. The most effective means to cap rates has been legislation (e.g. the Durbin amendment and efforts in the EU.) because of the cartel-like behavior of the market participants to keep prices high and compete on "features".