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See also this piece about Mexican Maya practices around chores — essentially, letting toddlers exercise their innate desire to be helpful by having them partici

See also this piece about Mexican Maya practices around chores — essentially, letting toddlers exercise their innate desire to be helpful by having them participate in housework, even though they are clumsy and slow. The distilled advice: 1. Expose kids to chores as much as possible. 2. Think small tasks, big contributions (The task can be tiny, but the key part is that it has to make a real contribution to the chore, not “mock work”) 3. Always aim to work together 4. Don't force it 5. Change your mindset about young children (Don’t assume toddlers and young children simply want to play; they may want to help) https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2018/06/09/616928895/how-to-get-your-kids-to-do-chores-without-resenting-it https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2018/06/09/6169288... HN discussion of the NPR piece: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17280710 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17280710

clairity 8y ago
i still really like this seeing it the second time around. my mom would just yell at me to do chores but never really enforce a schedule. she gave me allowance regardless. my dad would make me be his helper as he tinkered around the house despite my protestations (it might have worked if he used the tom sawyer whitewashing trick however). he never gave me money. neither approach worked very well and to this day i dislike routine house work.
- ggcdn 8y ago
  I don't know if any parrenting approach can ever make someone like routine housework. Its more about instilling the discipline to do the work in spite of not wanting to, with the reward being a more pleasant household.
  - jvagner 8y ago
    that's one attitude. the other is that it's an opportunity for flow, to improve your surroundings, to keep things nice, etc. i like the list above, and don't have any issues getting my 14 (almost 15) year old to do chores. but it's important at the beginning to do the chore together, and to make sure they understand how to do it, and why you'd do it. then chore time can be shared time, where the flow of the house is to get some chores done. then it's a balance, as in, "i'll do dishes, you clean the bathroom..." it needs to be a cooperative function of the household, where everyone is visibly contributing. we run a pretty minimalist house and lifestyle, but we gotta keep the house. together.
    - rdtsc 8y ago
      I like the improve your surroundings idea and try to teach my 7 year old about it. See a dirty dish, don't walk by, wash it, then move on. See dirt on the floor pick it up. Stuff like that.
    - pdkl95 8y ago
      > it's important at the beginning to do the chore together This is very important. Kids are clever and surprisingly capable when they are able to gain some firsthand experience. The problem is they don't actually have that experience. Humans learn by observing and imitating; working together on the same task lets them easily observe in detail from an experienced role model. Immediate feedback lets them rapidly iterate their attempts to imitate their observations. Victor Wooten gave an outstanding TED talk[1] on this topic[2]: > If you think about how you learned [to speak English], you realize you weren’t taught it. People just spoke to you. But the coolest thing is [...] you were allowed to speak back. > Now if I take the music example, in most cases, our beginners are not allowed to play with the better people. You’re stuck in the beginning class. You have to remain there a few years, until you are elevated to the intermediate and then advanced. [...] > But with language, to use a musical term, even as a baby you’re jamming with professionals, all the time — to the point that you don’t even know you’re a beginner. No one says, “I can’t talk to you until you got to go over there. When you’re older, then I can speak to you.” It doesn’t happen. No one tells you what you have to say. You’re not made to sit in a corner and practice. You’re never even corrected when you’re wrong. > Think about it, when you’re 2, 3 years old and you say a word wrong over and over, no one corrects you. If you say it wrong enough times, instead of correcting you, your parents learn your way. And they start saying it wrong too. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zvjW9arAZ0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zvjW9arAZ0 [2] obviously his talk is primarily about music education, but his observations about how kids learn should apply to most topics
  - perl4ever 8y ago
    Cleaning things can be enjoyable. I know because sometimes I feel like doing it and sometimes I don't. It is practically the best barometer of my mental health I know. To me, it's common sense that people who always do a good job of keeping things clean generally have a desire or at least a compulsion to do it. Just like the vast majority of people who are thin don't have to starve themselves.
    - erikpukinskis 8y ago
      Chickens and cats will also stop cleaning their bodies when they are depressed. Grooming is a good indication of mental health for these animals.
- sys_64738 8y ago
  Mom: Do those chores. Me: Why? Mom: Do you like living here? Me: Yes. Mom Do you want to continue living here? Me: Yes. Mom: Do those chores. It's all about motivation and attitude. If your child is lazy then paint them the reality that they living with you is their choice, not your own.
jolmg 8y ago
> 5. Change your mindset about young children (Don’t assume toddlers and young children simply want to play; they may want to help) It always seems to me that kids always start with an innate desire to learn by mimicking available role models, whether they are parents, older siblings, or older relatives. It's only after being repeatedly told to go somewhere else to play and not bother the adults and their work that they start to look for other ways to spend their time (e.g. by playing or watching youtube). They realize offers of help are probably going to be treated as a bother and rejected, and become accustomed to doing other activities that don't bother the adults. Then, the parent, at some later point in time, complains that they don't help around the house. They'll insist their kid to help more, but they're asking him/her to change a habit of play that's been set since long ago. That's why I think that one should start teaching life skills as soon as a child is able and willing to learn them. They might suck at everything at first and be more bother than help, but that's part of learning and that bother I think is the burden of parenting. > 4. Don't force it Yeah, people don't like doing what they're forced to do, and they'll avoid what they don't like. It's about understanding that it's a necessity of life. It's not optional. While the kid's a kid, the parents will be there to help the kid clean up after his messes and do other things necessary for his/her life (cooking etc.), but that help won't always be there. So, it's not about getting the kid to help as much as it is about reducing the amount of help the kid must receive from his parents. If he's doing chores that the whole family benefit from, it's to counterbalance the things that other family members do for him. I feel much of the conflict in getting kids to do their chores is because they don't see the logic in fairness behind it, and the benefit that it's for him/her to learn it. It's a communication problem, which is understandable because communicating effectively with kids can be hard or at least different to communicating with adults. > 2. Think small tasks, big contributions (The task can be tiny, but the key part is that it has to make a real contribution to the chore, not “mock work”) Kids aren't dumb, and pointless work is pointless. As soon as they notice that the work they're putting in isn't helping anyone, why bother? It's the feeling of being useful and dependable what we want them to feel. Gratitude from a loved family member that visibly benefited from his/her work is nice, too. > this piece about Mexican Maya practices around chores I didn't know it came from the Mayans. Is this not common advice? EDIT: Disclaimer: I don't have kids. This are just my thoughts based on what I've learned from other parents and their kids.
hkon 8y ago
Whenever my nephew was throwing a tantrum we would tell him to organize the cupboard with pots and pans, three years old, he could sit there for hours organizing.
speg 8y ago
Our two year old has taken it upon himself to feed the dog. He needs help scooping up the food but after that he can (carefully) walk across the room, pour it into the bowl, return the scoop to the bin, close the bin, and then the cupboard door. Sometimes he spills the food. That’s ok, we clean it up together. I have no idea how he learned all these things. We certainly didn’t teach him explicitly. Amazing creatures these humans are…

clairity 8y ago

i still really like this seeing it the second time around. my mom would just yell at me to do chores but never really enforce a schedule. she gave me allowance regardless. my dad would make me be his helper as he tinkered around the house despite my protestations (it might have worked if he used the tom sawyer whitewashing trick however). he never gave me money. neither approach worked very well and to this day i dislike routine house work.

ggcdn 8y ago
I don't know if any parrenting approach can ever make someone like routine housework. Its more about instilling the discipline to do the work in spite of not wanting to, with the reward being a more pleasant household.
- jvagner 8y ago
  that's one attitude. the other is that it's an opportunity for flow, to improve your surroundings, to keep things nice, etc. i like the list above, and don't have any issues getting my 14 (almost 15) year old to do chores. but it's important at the beginning to do the chore together, and to make sure they understand how to do it, and why you'd do it. then chore time can be shared time, where the flow of the house is to get some chores done. then it's a balance, as in, "i'll do dishes, you clean the bathroom..." it needs to be a cooperative function of the household, where everyone is visibly contributing. we run a pretty minimalist house and lifestyle, but we gotta keep the house. together.
  - rdtsc 8y ago
    I like the improve your surroundings idea and try to teach my 7 year old about it. See a dirty dish, don't walk by, wash it, then move on. See dirt on the floor pick it up. Stuff like that.
  - pdkl95 8y ago
    > it's important at the beginning to do the chore together This is very important. Kids are clever and surprisingly capable when they are able to gain some firsthand experience. The problem is they don't actually have that experience. Humans learn by observing and imitating; working together on the same task lets them easily observe in detail from an experienced role model. Immediate feedback lets them rapidly iterate their attempts to imitate their observations. Victor Wooten gave an outstanding TED talk[1] on this topic[2]: > If you think about how you learned [to speak English], you realize you weren’t taught it. People just spoke to you. But the coolest thing is [...] you were allowed to speak back. > Now if I take the music example, in most cases, our beginners are not allowed to play with the better people. You’re stuck in the beginning class. You have to remain there a few years, until you are elevated to the intermediate and then advanced. [...] > But with language, to use a musical term, even as a baby you’re jamming with professionals, all the time — to the point that you don’t even know you’re a beginner. No one says, “I can’t talk to you until you got to go over there. When you’re older, then I can speak to you.” It doesn’t happen. No one tells you what you have to say. You’re not made to sit in a corner and practice. You’re never even corrected when you’re wrong. > Think about it, when you’re 2, 3 years old and you say a word wrong over and over, no one corrects you. If you say it wrong enough times, instead of correcting you, your parents learn your way. And they start saying it wrong too. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zvjW9arAZ0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zvjW9arAZ0 [2] obviously his talk is primarily about music education, but his observations about how kids learn should apply to most topics
- perl4ever 8y ago
  Cleaning things can be enjoyable. I know because sometimes I feel like doing it and sometimes I don't. It is practically the best barometer of my mental health I know. To me, it's common sense that people who always do a good job of keeping things clean generally have a desire or at least a compulsion to do it. Just like the vast majority of people who are thin don't have to starve themselves.
  - erikpukinskis 8y ago
    Chickens and cats will also stop cleaning their bodies when they are depressed. Grooming is a good indication of mental health for these animals.
sys_64738 8y ago
Mom: Do those chores. Me: Why? Mom: Do you like living here? Me: Yes. Mom Do you want to continue living here? Me: Yes. Mom: Do those chores. It's all about motivation and attitude. If your child is lazy then paint them the reality that they living with you is their choice, not your own.

jolmg 8y ago

> 5. Change your mindset about young children (Don’t assume toddlers and young children simply want to play; they may want to help) It always seems to me that kids always start with an innate desire to learn by mimicking available role models, whether they are parents, older siblings, or older relatives. It's only after being repeatedly told to go somewhere else to play and not bother the adults and their work that they start to look for other ways to spend their time (e.g. by playing or watching youtube). They realize offers of help are probably going to be treated as a bother and rejected, and become accustomed to doing other activities that don't bother the adults. Then, the parent, at some later point in time, complains that they don't help around the house. They'll insist their kid to help more, but they're asking him/her to change a habit of play that's been set since long ago. That's why I think that one should start teaching life skills as soon as a child is able and willing to learn them. They might suck at everything at first and be more bother than help, but that's part of learning and that bother I think is the burden of parenting. > 4. Don't force it Yeah, people don't like doing what they're forced to do, and they'll avoid what they don't like. It's about understanding that it's a necessity of life. It's not optional. While the kid's a kid, the parents will be there to help the kid clean up after his messes and do other things necessary for his/her life (cooking etc.), but that help won't always be there. So, it's not about getting the kid to help as much as it is about reducing the amount of help the kid must receive from his parents. If he's doing chores that the whole family benefit from, it's to counterbalance the things that other family members do for him. I feel much of the conflict in getting kids to do their chores is because they don't see the logic in fairness behind it, and the benefit that it's for him/her to learn it. It's a communication problem, which is understandable because communicating effectively with kids can be hard or at least different to communicating with adults. > 2. Think small tasks, big contributions (The task can be tiny, but the key part is that it has to make a real contribution to the chore, not “mock work”) Kids aren't dumb, and pointless work is pointless. As soon as they notice that the work they're putting in isn't helping anyone, why bother? It's the feeling of being useful and dependable what we want them to feel. Gratitude from a loved family member that visibly benefited from his/her work is nice, too. > this piece about Mexican Maya practices around chores I didn't know it came from the Mayans. Is this not common advice? EDIT: Disclaimer: I don't have kids. This are just my thoughts based on what I've learned from other parents and their kids.

hkon 8y ago

Whenever my nephew was throwing a tantrum we would tell him to organize the cupboard with pots and pans, three years old, he could sit there for hours organizing.

speg 8y ago

Our two year old has taken it upon himself to feed the dog. He needs help scooping up the food but after that he can (carefully) walk across the room, pour it into the bowl, return the scoop to the bin, close the bin, and then the cupboard door. Sometimes he spills the food. That’s ok, we clean it up together. I have no idea how he learned all these things. We certainly didn’t teach him explicitly. Amazing creatures these humans are…