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The two are very different. Knowing consensus rules I can verify the chain and if I notice something fishy - I go back to figuring out if I’m being attacked.

The two are very different. Knowing consensus rules I can verify the chain and if I notice something fishy - I go back to figuring out if I’m being attacked. If instead I simply accept what chain I should follow - I have no guarantees I wasn’t attacked. With PoS it’s even worse - I can generate million different chains for zero cost and you have no objective measure to tell which one of them is more genuine and more secure. That’s exactly the issue PoW solves - gives you such objective measure to compare chains.

stale2002 8y ago
> Knowing consensus rules I can verify the chain and if I notice something fishy - I go back to figuring out if I’m being attacked. But you don't know the consensus rules. How do you know that sha256 is the "real" bitcoin proof of work algorithm? Maybe the real POW algorithm is sha512? You can't get around this bootstrapping problem.
- keymone 8y ago
  there is no "real" bitcoin. everybody decides for themselves which consensus rules they deem "correct". it's your money, it's your choice and it's your responsibility. the point is that when you choose consensus rules bootstrapping doesn't rely on third parties in bitcoin. it does in many other coins including ethereum.
  - stale2002 8y ago
    Yes, and just like you can choose which consensus rules to follow, other people can choose which chain to follow. There are no first principles where you derive everything from. A person simply picks a chain to follow, it is their choice and their responsibility, in the same exact way that one chooses for consensus rules.
    - keymone 8y ago
      > just like you can choose which consensus rules to follow, other people can choose which chain to follow. the two are not the same. consensus rules dictate how to validate the chain. following the chain without knowing the rules and validating it is meaningless. might as well trust any existing fiat system. > There are no first principles where you derive everything from. no, but there is an objective measure of security contributed to every chain - proof of work. by validating competing chains and measuring how much work they contain you can make informed decision. PoS has none of that, trusting chainstate from third party has none of that, only validating for yourself.
CryptoPunk 8y ago
PoS requires that you get the consensus rules AND a hash of the most recent valid block from a trusted source. With PoW, you only get the consensus rules. Either way, you're relying on a trusted third party for bootstrapping. The risk that the party you trust is defrauding you is infinitesimal in both cases, given you can poll the community widely until you settle a highly credible source of truth, or several credible sources that all agree on the same version of events. >>That’s exactly the issue PoW solves - gives you such objective measure to compare chains. That's true, with PoW you can measure the work in each chain. With PoS, you do you have a somewhat similar option: you can measure the market value of the coins of each chain.
- keymone 8y ago
  > PoS requires that you get the consensus rules AND a hash of the most recent valid block from a trusted source. no, nothing in PoS requires that. just a sad state of affairs with most centralized insecure PoS coins these days. > With PoW, you only get the consensus rules. no, you can opt to get hash of the most recent block if you want to compromise your security. > Either way, you're relying on a trusted third party for bootstrapping. no, you don't have to rely on trusted party for PoW bootstrapping. if you're scared somebody has communicated consensus rules to you incorrectly or maliciously - you just get those rules from multiple sources and VERIFY THE CHAIN FOR YOURSELF. with PoW you get objective measure to compare those chains, with PoS you get nothing. > With PoS, you do you have a somewhat similar option: you can measure the market value of the coins of each chain. no, you completely misunderstand the problem at hand. given coin X and multiple chains of coin X - how do you compare those chains? market price of coin X tells you nothing how to distinguish between competing chains. market price is completely detached from actual verification work happening on chain.
  - CryptoPunk 8y ago
    >>no, nothing in PoS requires that. It's necessary for bootstrapping. What alternative is there for bootstrapping using PoS? >>just a sad state of affairs with most centralized insecure PoS coins these days. I have no idea what superior alternative for PoS you're referring to. What bootstrapping alternative does any PoS blockchain have to getting the recent state and consensus rules from a trusted third party? Right now your argument makes absolutely no sense to me as you suddenly seem to be implying that there is a superior PoS mechanism that existing PoS chains don't use, which is an entirely new argument you haven't touched on before and an have not detailed right now, so please elaborate on this with a mind to explain its connection to the argument thread that preceded it.

stale2002 8y ago

> Knowing consensus rules I can verify the chain and if I notice something fishy - I go back to figuring out if I’m being attacked. But you don't know the consensus rules. How do you know that sha256 is the "real" bitcoin proof of work algorithm? Maybe the real POW algorithm is sha512? You can't get around this bootstrapping problem.

keymone 8y ago
there is no "real" bitcoin. everybody decides for themselves which consensus rules they deem "correct". it's your money, it's your choice and it's your responsibility. the point is that when you choose consensus rules bootstrapping doesn't rely on third parties in bitcoin. it does in many other coins including ethereum.
- stale2002 8y ago
  Yes, and just like you can choose which consensus rules to follow, other people can choose which chain to follow. There are no first principles where you derive everything from. A person simply picks a chain to follow, it is their choice and their responsibility, in the same exact way that one chooses for consensus rules.
  - keymone 8y ago
    > just like you can choose which consensus rules to follow, other people can choose which chain to follow. the two are not the same. consensus rules dictate how to validate the chain. following the chain without knowing the rules and validating it is meaningless. might as well trust any existing fiat system. > There are no first principles where you derive everything from. no, but there is an objective measure of security contributed to every chain - proof of work. by validating competing chains and measuring how much work they contain you can make informed decision. PoS has none of that, trusting chainstate from third party has none of that, only validating for yourself.

CryptoPunk 8y ago

PoS requires that you get the consensus rules AND a hash of the most recent valid block from a trusted source. With PoW, you only get the consensus rules. Either way, you're relying on a trusted third party for bootstrapping. The risk that the party you trust is defrauding you is infinitesimal in both cases, given you can poll the community widely until you settle a highly credible source of truth, or several credible sources that all agree on the same version of events. >>That’s exactly the issue PoW solves - gives you such objective measure to compare chains. That's true, with PoW you can measure the work in each chain. With PoS, you do you have a somewhat similar option: you can measure the market value of the coins of each chain.

keymone 8y ago
> PoS requires that you get the consensus rules AND a hash of the most recent valid block from a trusted source. no, nothing in PoS requires that. just a sad state of affairs with most centralized insecure PoS coins these days. > With PoW, you only get the consensus rules. no, you can opt to get hash of the most recent block if you want to compromise your security. > Either way, you're relying on a trusted third party for bootstrapping. no, you don't have to rely on trusted party for PoW bootstrapping. if you're scared somebody has communicated consensus rules to you incorrectly or maliciously - you just get those rules from multiple sources and VERIFY THE CHAIN FOR YOURSELF. with PoW you get objective measure to compare those chains, with PoS you get nothing. > With PoS, you do you have a somewhat similar option: you can measure the market value of the coins of each chain. no, you completely misunderstand the problem at hand. given coin X and multiple chains of coin X - how do you compare those chains? market price of coin X tells you nothing how to distinguish between competing chains. market price is completely detached from actual verification work happening on chain.
- CryptoPunk 8y ago
  >>no, nothing in PoS requires that. It's necessary for bootstrapping. What alternative is there for bootstrapping using PoS? >>just a sad state of affairs with most centralized insecure PoS coins these days. I have no idea what superior alternative for PoS you're referring to. What bootstrapping alternative does any PoS blockchain have to getting the recent state and consensus rules from a trusted third party? Right now your argument makes absolutely no sense to me as you suddenly seem to be implying that there is a superior PoS mechanism that existing PoS chains don't use, which is an entirely new argument you haven't touched on before and an have not detailed right now, so please elaborate on this with a mind to explain its connection to the argument thread that preceded it.