5 ms·

Electronics-Recycling Innovator Going to Prison for Extending Computers’ Lives

82 points by Paul_S 8y ago

PostOnce 8y ago
We determined previously the guy is full of shit, knowingly manufacturing counterfeits in China and scheming to avoid interception by customs, plainly stating as much in email which was later used as evidence. example of such an email: https://1gew6o3qn6vx9kp3s42ge0y1-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/prod/sites/5/2018/04/Email3.pdf https://1gew6o3qn6vx9kp3s42ge0y1-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-... (linked from below article) https://blogs.microsoft.com/on-the-issues/2018/04/27/the-facts-about-a-recent-counterfeiting-case-brought-by-the-u-s-government/ https://blogs.microsoft.com/on-the-issues/2018/04/27/the-fac... > “No normal company or buyer will notice such issues.” “Make me proud so that our business can grow and we can keep winning.” > “There are tricks for bypassing customs with container’s & LTL but currently this is how I get these products without invoices past customs.” > “If they call you just play stupid and tell them you ordered from an asset management broker overseas.”
- hjek 8y ago
  It seems that this "manufacturing counterfeits" is literally just copying Windows CDs: > Lundgren made 28,000 of the discs and shipped them to a broker, who planned to sell them to computer refurbishing shops for about 25 cents each, so they could provide them to used-computer buyers. > Microsoft’s lawyers valued the discs at $25 each and said they represent $700,000 in potential sales. Firstly I think it's a harsh sentence (because copying isn't theft[0]), but secondly can anyone tell me why on earth he didn't just burn some Debian discs? (Perhaps with LXDE if it's really old computers.) [0]: https://youtu.be/IeTybKL1pM4 https://youtu.be/IeTybKL1pM4
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - gnode 8y ago
    > can anyone tell me why on earth he didn't just burn some Debian discs? Because Windows is what the typical American PC user expects and is familiar with.
    - hjek 8y ago
      Yea, ok. But then Windows itself has changed so much, that something like XFCE arguably feels more like XP/Vista than Windows 8 or 10 does. From my personal observation the Charms Bar especially appears to confuse people. (Or, did he in fact put Windows XP on those older computers? If so, then that's also highly irresponsible, as it doesn't receive any security updates!) So I wonder why Lundgren has been going out of his way to face potential criminal prosecution, fines and jail time in order to provide what most people arguably might more familiar with? I don't get his cost/benefit analysis.
      - betterunix2 8y ago
        People still install Windows software on their computers; among other things there are still printers and other peripherals with drivers that are only available for Windows (as insane as that may seem in this day and age). It is not just familiarity with the UI.
        hjek 8y ago
        I've experienced this cut both ways though. At our print studios we have one printer that works with Windows and not GNU/Linux and one where it's the other way around.
    - qha 8y ago
      >Because Windows is what the typical American PC user expects and is familiar with. Without the "American".
  - DanBC 8y ago
    He didn't just copy the software content of the disc. He reproduced the printing and labelling of the originals, and kept refining his product to look more similar to the original so they'd get through customs. He wasn't always selling them for 25cents. There are documents from him where he's selling them for $20.
    - hjek 8y ago
      > He reproduced the printing and labelling of the originals, and kept refining his product to look more similar to the original so they'd get through customs. Ok, I think that may justify using the word "counterfeit" then. > There are documents from him where he's selling them for $20. The thing is, it would have been perfectly legal for him to sell Debian CDs for $20. That would still have made the old computers usable again. It's good to make use of old computers, but I think the implied argument of having to copy Windows recovery CDs to save old computers is nonsense. The story just puzzles me. Maybe he didn't realise that you can sell free software[1]? [1]: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html
      - dbuder 8y ago
        People want those CDs to get their computers working again with all their word documents .xls .ppt, if you mother took her wintel desktop to a local shop and came home with Debian kind or running on the random hardware what use would that be to her?
    - betterunix2 8y ago
      Oh, well, if he copied the labels that really makes a world of difference!
      - DanBC 8y ago
        It demonstrates dishonesty, which is what turns this from someone not knowing what they're doing into someone making the choice to engage in criminal behaviour. All of his protestation - "I was only selling them for cost" (a lie), and "I was trying to extend the life of computers" (linux would have done that, and the free downloads of Windows would have done that) - is the defence he tried to mount against the criminal charge. That defence was rejected by the court.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - acqq 8y ago
    >> Lundgren made 28,000 of the discs and shipped them to a broker, who planned to sell them to computer refurbishing shops for about 25 cents each, so they could provide them to used-computer buyers. >> Microsoft’s lawyers valued the discs at $25 each and said they represent $700,000 in potential sales. Something doesn't match: on the Microsoft's page I get: "one transaction alone generated $28,000 in revenue for Mr. Lundgren and his co-defendant from the sale of 8,000 discs." Which means his revenue was $3.5 pro disc in that case. Interestingly, in both cases the number 28,000 is specified.
  - ineedasername 8y ago
    Probably no Linux because these were intended to be used with old computers sold to consumers. And regardless of the merits of Linux, virtually no average consumer is going to purchase a computer without Windows.
    - hjek 8y ago
      > virtually no average consumer is going to purchase a computer without Windows. What about the devices that Apple and Google are selling? (No endorsement implied)
- yholio 8y ago
  The guy is full of shit, but so is Microsoft. The travesty here is that the justice system sided with the corporate gorilla in a commercial issue that should be solved in a civil court. There is no greater social value at stake here, there is zero public interest in criminally enforcing Microsoft's licensing scheme and their various loopholes designed to maximize revenue.
  - ac29 8y ago
    The case wasn't brought by Microsoft, it was brought by Federal Prosecutors, who had the information given to them by the U.S Customs service. https://1gew6o3qn6vx9kp3s42ge0y1-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/prod/sites/5/2018/04/FINAL-FILED-BRIEF-11.17.17-004.pdf https://1gew6o3qn6vx9kp3s42ge0y1-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-...
  - n-gate 8y ago
    I presume you distribute everything you create for free?
    - PostOnce 8y ago
      he didn't say the guy deserves to get away with it, though he said the guy should be sued in civil court and be made to pay damages, rather than sent to prison by a criminal court
  - qha 8y ago
    It's their software and they can do whatever they want with it. The real travesty here is thinking that just because Windows is widely used it should be given away.
    - ineedasername 8y ago
      I agree with the sentiment, but in this case it appears the discs were just being used to restore software that was still legally licensed to the computer. But license issues aside, it seems this guy was conspiring to commit fraud through the customs/import process too.
close04 8y ago
I don't know, I personally find the "I'm selling the CDs because people don't know it's available for free online" a bit unconvincing. He did it in hopes of profiting [0] by misleading people into thinking they pay for an original. What he sold is freely available online, one search away. Definitely a lot more accessible than buying his discs. This article is heavily biased and fails to present any of the evidence that puts the guy in a bad light. Also [1]: > However, in essence, what Lundgren eventually pleaded guilty to was making these Dell refurbishers’ customers believe that they were obtaining a genuine Dell-branded "Reinstallation Disc" with Dell’s blessing, when in actuality, they weren’t. P.S. I love how the downvotes pour in with no actual dissenting opinion :). Nowhere even in the guy's own emails can anyone find anything but mentions of profit, a ripe market, and basically doing his best to deceive customers by making the product look like a genuine Dell one (arranging for fake Microsoft and Dell labels to be applied to the discs). Nobody goes to such lengths to deceive their customers out of honesty and good intentions. What he did is like recycling paper into freshly printed counterfeit banknotes. Real Robin Hood. > “You would have to be an expert with a magnifying glass to know and/or see such differences.” [2] > “If the software will be 98% accurate I believe I can get away with that.” [2] [0] https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/27/17293650/microsoft-recycler-jail-sentence-windows-software-counterfeiting-response https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/27/17293650/microsoft-recycl... [1] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/04/why-the-man-who-tried-to-sell-windows-recovery-discs-will-go-to-prison/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/04/why-the-man-who-... [2] https://blogs.microsoft.com/on-the-issues/2018/04/27/the-facts-about-a-recent-counterfeiting-case-brought-by-the-u-s-government/ https://blogs.microsoft.com/on-the-issues/2018/04/27/the-fac...
- zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 8y ago
  The only way in which they weren't "genuine" is that the plastic they were made from was not blessed by Dell, that's it. The data on them was perfectly genuine, and the data on them could be obtained for free anyway. You might as well argue that downloading the disk image through a third-party ISP is a counterfeit because the ISP is sending you bits labeled as coming from Microsoft on their own medium, and they are even profiting from it!
  - 8y ago
paramahans 8y ago
This sentencing is wrong. Microsoft was not even selling those disks and the computers on which the software was intended to be installed were already licensed to use the software. Just because of some "estimated" or "virtual" losses, this guy is being sent to prison. How screwed up is our justice system?
- eggy 8y ago
  Read the Microsoft link repeated here for convenience: https://blogs.microsoft.com/on-the-issues/2018/04/27/the-facts-about-a-recent-counterfeiting-case-brought-by-the-u-s-government/ https://blogs.microsoft.com/on-the-issues/2018/04/27/the-fac... Microsoft didn't bring up the case, and it's obvious from the guys own emails he was producing counterfeit discs to pass off as genuine for his own profit. If he were blatantly doing it, and not trying to deceive buyers, I would not feel as strongly as I do that he is trying to spin it differently now that he has been caught. If it weren't for profit, he could have spent his efforts publicizing the availability of genuine discs on his blog and elsewhere to get people to keep their old Windows machines. XP didn't officially end until April 2014, and he was doing this in 2012. In the end, I think 15 years sentence is very harsh considering rapists get an average of 9.8 years, and only serve about 5.4 years.
  - eggy 8y ago
    Early morning, pre-coffee eyes. Thanks for the correction. I still think 15 months is too much for what this is even if the guy did it for personal gain. He should have received a fine at most. I had a similar feeling of the sentence being a bit much in the case of Mark Abene aka Phiber Optik [1] back in my NYC Echo Days (where is Stacy Horn nowadays?). Phiber Optik (Mark Abene)was sent to prison for the AT&T hack to be made an "example" of the "Hacker threat". He served 12 months. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Abene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Abene
  - s369610 8y ago
    I think it was only 15 months : "15-month prison term and a $50,000 fine"
  - 8y ago
blattimwind 8y ago
I flagged this because the article isn't even trying to report in a neutral fashion and the site seems to be full of clickbait articles such as "Study: Non-Stick Pans Make Your Penis Smaller".
- 40four 8y ago
  Yeah, this is an interesting story, but the article/ source is of poor quality, and appears to be heavilly biased based on info people are bringing up in comments. In fact, the article appears to just be the LA times article (linked in the story) chopped up. Some verbatim, some paraphrased. https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-microsoft-copyright-20180426-story.html https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-microso...
- andrewflnr 8y ago
  I didn't quite believe you about that headline until I saw it for myself. It's terrible, but also hilarious. I'd link it if it didn't make me feel dirty, but suffice to say it's definitely clickbait and the content doesn't live up to the title.
theK 8y ago
I don’t get most of the comments here, the content on the discs is supposed to be freely available from Microsoft. So what is this talk about windows copies?

82 points by Paul_S 8y ago

We determined previously the guy is full of shit, knowingly manufacturing counterfeits in China and scheming to avoid interception by customs, plainly stating as much in email which was later used as evidence. example of such an email: https://1gew6o3qn6vx9kp3s42ge0y1-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/prod/sites/5/2018/04/Email3.pdf https://1gew6o3qn6vx9kp3s42ge0y1-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-... (linked from below article) https://blogs.microsoft.com/on-the-issues/2018/04/27/the-facts-about-a-recent-counterfeiting-case-brought-by-the-u-s-government/ https://blogs.microsoft.com/on-the-issues/2018/04/27/the-fac... > “No normal company or buyer will notice such issues.” “Make me proud so that our business can grow and we can keep winning.” > “There are tricks for bypassing customs with container’s & LTL but currently this is how I get these products without invoices past customs.” > “If they call you just play stupid and tell them you ordered from an asset management broker overseas.”

hjek 8y ago
It seems that this "manufacturing counterfeits" is literally just copying Windows CDs: > Lundgren made 28,000 of the discs and shipped them to a broker, who planned to sell them to computer refurbishing shops for about 25 cents each, so they could provide them to used-computer buyers. > Microsoft’s lawyers valued the discs at $25 each and said they represent $700,000 in potential sales. Firstly I think it's a harsh sentence (because copying isn't theft[0]), but secondly can anyone tell me why on earth he didn't just burn some Debian discs? (Perhaps with LXDE if it's really old computers.) [0]: https://youtu.be/IeTybKL1pM4 https://youtu.be/IeTybKL1pM4
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- gnode 8y ago
  > can anyone tell me why on earth he didn't just burn some Debian discs? Because Windows is what the typical American PC user expects and is familiar with.
  - hjek 8y ago
    Yea, ok. But then Windows itself has changed so much, that something like XFCE arguably feels more like XP/Vista than Windows 8 or 10 does. From my personal observation the Charms Bar especially appears to confuse people. (Or, did he in fact put Windows XP on those older computers? If so, then that's also highly irresponsible, as it doesn't receive any security updates!) So I wonder why Lundgren has been going out of his way to face potential criminal prosecution, fines and jail time in order to provide what most people arguably might more familiar with? I don't get his cost/benefit analysis.
    - betterunix2 8y ago
      People still install Windows software on their computers; among other things there are still printers and other peripherals with drivers that are only available for Windows (as insane as that may seem in this day and age). It is not just familiarity with the UI.
      - hjek 8y ago
        I've experienced this cut both ways though. At our print studios we have one printer that works with Windows and not GNU/Linux and one where it's the other way around.
  - qha 8y ago
    >Because Windows is what the typical American PC user expects and is familiar with. Without the "American".
- DanBC 8y ago
  He didn't just copy the software content of the disc. He reproduced the printing and labelling of the originals, and kept refining his product to look more similar to the original so they'd get through customs. He wasn't always selling them for 25cents. There are documents from him where he's selling them for $20.
  - hjek 8y ago
    > He reproduced the printing and labelling of the originals, and kept refining his product to look more similar to the original so they'd get through customs. Ok, I think that may justify using the word "counterfeit" then. > There are documents from him where he's selling them for $20. The thing is, it would have been perfectly legal for him to sell Debian CDs for $20. That would still have made the old computers usable again. It's good to make use of old computers, but I think the implied argument of having to copy Windows recovery CDs to save old computers is nonsense. The story just puzzles me. Maybe he didn't realise that you can sell free software[1]? [1]: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html
    - dbuder 8y ago
      People want those CDs to get their computers working again with all their word documents .xls .ppt, if you mother took her wintel desktop to a local shop and came home with Debian kind or running on the random hardware what use would that be to her?
  - betterunix2 8y ago
    Oh, well, if he copied the labels that really makes a world of difference!
    - DanBC 8y ago
      It demonstrates dishonesty, which is what turns this from someone not knowing what they're doing into someone making the choice to engage in criminal behaviour. All of his protestation - "I was only selling them for cost" (a lie), and "I was trying to extend the life of computers" (linux would have done that, and the free downloads of Windows would have done that) - is the defence he tried to mount against the criminal charge. That defence was rejected by the court.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- acqq 8y ago
  >> Lundgren made 28,000 of the discs and shipped them to a broker, who planned to sell them to computer refurbishing shops for about 25 cents each, so they could provide them to used-computer buyers. >> Microsoft’s lawyers valued the discs at $25 each and said they represent $700,000 in potential sales. Something doesn't match: on the Microsoft's page I get: "one transaction alone generated $28,000 in revenue for Mr. Lundgren and his co-defendant from the sale of 8,000 discs." Which means his revenue was $3.5 pro disc in that case. Interestingly, in both cases the number 28,000 is specified.
- ineedasername 8y ago
  Probably no Linux because these were intended to be used with old computers sold to consumers. And regardless of the merits of Linux, virtually no average consumer is going to purchase a computer without Windows.
  - hjek 8y ago
    > virtually no average consumer is going to purchase a computer without Windows. What about the devices that Apple and Google are selling? (No endorsement implied)
yholio 8y ago
The guy is full of shit, but so is Microsoft. The travesty here is that the justice system sided with the corporate gorilla in a commercial issue that should be solved in a civil court. There is no greater social value at stake here, there is zero public interest in criminally enforcing Microsoft's licensing scheme and their various loopholes designed to maximize revenue.
- ac29 8y ago
  The case wasn't brought by Microsoft, it was brought by Federal Prosecutors, who had the information given to them by the U.S Customs service. https://1gew6o3qn6vx9kp3s42ge0y1-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/prod/sites/5/2018/04/FINAL-FILED-BRIEF-11.17.17-004.pdf https://1gew6o3qn6vx9kp3s42ge0y1-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-...
- n-gate 8y ago
  I presume you distribute everything you create for free?
  - PostOnce 8y ago
    he didn't say the guy deserves to get away with it, though he said the guy should be sued in civil court and be made to pay damages, rather than sent to prison by a criminal court
- qha 8y ago
  It's their software and they can do whatever they want with it. The real travesty here is thinking that just because Windows is widely used it should be given away.
  - ineedasername 8y ago
    I agree with the sentiment, but in this case it appears the discs were just being used to restore software that was still legally licensed to the computer. But license issues aside, it seems this guy was conspiring to commit fraud through the customs/import process too.

close04 8y ago

I don't know, I personally find the "I'm selling the CDs because people don't know it's available for free online" a bit unconvincing. He did it in hopes of profiting [0] by misleading people into thinking they pay for an original. What he sold is freely available online, one search away. Definitely a lot more accessible than buying his discs. This article is heavily biased and fails to present any of the evidence that puts the guy in a bad light. Also [1]: > However, in essence, what Lundgren eventually pleaded guilty to was making these Dell refurbishers’ customers believe that they were obtaining a genuine Dell-branded "Reinstallation Disc" with Dell’s blessing, when in actuality, they weren’t. P.S. I love how the downvotes pour in with no actual dissenting opinion :). Nowhere even in the guy's own emails can anyone find anything but mentions of profit, a ripe market, and basically doing his best to deceive customers by making the product look like a genuine Dell one (arranging for fake Microsoft and Dell labels to be applied to the discs). Nobody goes to such lengths to deceive their customers out of honesty and good intentions. What he did is like recycling paper into freshly printed counterfeit banknotes. Real Robin Hood. > “You would have to be an expert with a magnifying glass to know and/or see such differences.” [2] > “If the software will be 98% accurate I believe I can get away with that.” [2] [0] https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/27/17293650/microsoft-recycler-jail-sentence-windows-software-counterfeiting-response https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/27/17293650/microsoft-recycl... [1] https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/04/why-the-man-who-tried-to-sell-windows-recovery-discs-will-go-to-prison/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/04/why-the-man-who-... [2] https://blogs.microsoft.com/on-the-issues/2018/04/27/the-facts-about-a-recent-counterfeiting-case-brought-by-the-u-s-government/ https://blogs.microsoft.com/on-the-issues/2018/04/27/the-fac...

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 8y ago
The only way in which they weren't "genuine" is that the plastic they were made from was not blessed by Dell, that's it. The data on them was perfectly genuine, and the data on them could be obtained for free anyway. You might as well argue that downloading the disk image through a third-party ISP is a counterfeit because the ISP is sending you bits labeled as coming from Microsoft on their own medium, and they are even profiting from it!
- 8y ago

paramahans 8y ago

This sentencing is wrong. Microsoft was not even selling those disks and the computers on which the software was intended to be installed were already licensed to use the software. Just because of some "estimated" or "virtual" losses, this guy is being sent to prison. How screwed up is our justice system?

eggy 8y ago
Read the Microsoft link repeated here for convenience: https://blogs.microsoft.com/on-the-issues/2018/04/27/the-facts-about-a-recent-counterfeiting-case-brought-by-the-u-s-government/ https://blogs.microsoft.com/on-the-issues/2018/04/27/the-fac... Microsoft didn't bring up the case, and it's obvious from the guys own emails he was producing counterfeit discs to pass off as genuine for his own profit. If he were blatantly doing it, and not trying to deceive buyers, I would not feel as strongly as I do that he is trying to spin it differently now that he has been caught. If it weren't for profit, he could have spent his efforts publicizing the availability of genuine discs on his blog and elsewhere to get people to keep their old Windows machines. XP didn't officially end until April 2014, and he was doing this in 2012. In the end, I think 15 years sentence is very harsh considering rapists get an average of 9.8 years, and only serve about 5.4 years.
- eggy 8y ago
  Early morning, pre-coffee eyes. Thanks for the correction. I still think 15 months is too much for what this is even if the guy did it for personal gain. He should have received a fine at most. I had a similar feeling of the sentence being a bit much in the case of Mark Abene aka Phiber Optik [1] back in my NYC Echo Days (where is Stacy Horn nowadays?). Phiber Optik (Mark Abene)was sent to prison for the AT&T hack to be made an "example" of the "Hacker threat". He served 12 months. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Abene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Abene
- s369610 8y ago
  I think it was only 15 months : "15-month prison term and a $50,000 fine"
- 8y ago

blattimwind 8y ago

I flagged this because the article isn't even trying to report in a neutral fashion and the site seems to be full of clickbait articles such as "Study: Non-Stick Pans Make Your Penis Smaller".

40four 8y ago
Yeah, this is an interesting story, but the article/ source is of poor quality, and appears to be heavilly biased based on info people are bringing up in comments. In fact, the article appears to just be the LA times article (linked in the story) chopped up. Some verbatim, some paraphrased. https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-microsoft-copyright-20180426-story.html https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-microso...
andrewflnr 8y ago
I didn't quite believe you about that headline until I saw it for myself. It's terrible, but also hilarious. I'd link it if it didn't make me feel dirty, but suffice to say it's definitely clickbait and the content doesn't live up to the title.

theK 8y ago

I don’t get most of the comments here, the content on the discs is supposed to be freely available from Microsoft. So what is this talk about windows copies?