3 ms·

It’s more work, and that’s exactly the problem. A teacher deserves to go home and enjoy their family and life outside of work. The only way to make this possibl

by nilkn 8y ago

It’s more work, and that’s exactly the problem. A teacher deserves to go home and enjoy their family and life outside of work. The only way to make this possible is to have students and parents understand that after a certain point the grade is simply final, so if you want a good grade it’s your responsibility to learn the material prior to exams or large projects or assignments being due. Everyone knows this; there is no secret. So I don’t think it’s fair at all to expect the teacher to do more work for you when you didn’t put in the effort to learn the material the first time.

woolvalley 8y ago
Well it's a pay issue too isn't it? If a family paid for the teachers time for extra work, then I'm guessing the pushback wouldn't be as bad.
- nilkn 8y ago
  I was tempted to agree when I read this, but then I thought that this creates an unfair advantage for parents who can afford to pay for extra time from the teacher.
  - tokyodude 8y ago
    So the parent with more money pay for a different tutor. What's the difference? Or are suggesting the parents with more money should not be allowed to pay for there kids to do anything a parent with less money can't afford?
    - pnutjam 8y ago
      I have two daughters who took orchestra, we couldn't afford private lessons. They did well, the teacher was excellent and they enjoyed themselves. They never reached the "top" orchestra. Our school has 3 levels. My third daughter played in the band, and we decided that we could finally afford $20 a week lessons from one of the instructors. She's in the top band and got to play in the county competitions. She's had alot more opportunity. I don't personally think she's significantly better, even though the lessons have helped her notice certain shortcomings more quickly. I do think she's noticed more by the band leaders.
    - alistairSH 8y ago
      The problem isn’t with the parent paying for tutoring, but with the teacher receiving pay for tutoring. It creates a perverseincentive for the teacher to grade students harshly until/unless they pay up for tutoring.
- jogjayr 8y ago
  It's not a big leap from "pay extra for extra credit assignments to improve grade" to "pay extra to improve grade". I'm not suggesting that the vast majority of teachers would be tempted or give in to bribery. But it sets up perverse incentives and the optics are terrible. It's also unfair to students who didn't do well and whose families can't afford to pay the teacher to grade their extra credit assignments.
  - ineedasername 8y ago
    I've hearrd of teachers in the local school district that offer for-pay tutoring to their students... It's always struck me as something of a conflict of interest, but I'm really not sure how I feel about it.
  - anticensor 8y ago
    The problem is determining where the line lies between teacher/instructor bribery and worthy lesson to learn.
- kaitai 8y ago
  Yeah, then I can feel like I'm selling grades to the highest bidder too. I didn't sign up for prostitution: the only reason I'm cool with the low pay is the purity & honesty of the job.
ineedasername 8y ago
I don't think "everyone knows this", not to the degree you indicate. Yes there is a balance to be made, but I and many of my colleagues believe the opportunity for learning shouldn't stop once an assignment has been graded. We believe that such grades are in fact the diagnostic we should use to determine which students need to be helped along, given the opportunity to learn the material better. You also say that a student who does poorly didn't put in the time. In some cases yes, but broadly it's simply not true. I've analyzed LMS data at large scales: Students who get F's don't put in much time on average. But students who get D's, on average, are putting in just as much time as the students getting A's and B's. The F students I can't do much about, with some notable exceptions, they mostly don't want to help themselves. But the rest are teachable. For me and my like minded colleagues, it's not that we expect ourselves or others to do more work. It's that our vision of what the job's baseline work requirements entail goes beyond a rigid grading process that implicitly assumes that learning takes place in discrete bits of time, uniformly for all students.
- nilkn 8y ago
  Using intermediate grades to figure out which students to focus on is perfectly fine, and in fact I'm not sure it has much to do with what's being discussed. We're talking about a teacher being asked by a parent to create extra credit work so a student can jump from an A- to an A so they have better odds of getting into X/Y/Z. I don't think anyone is suggesting that teachers can't dynamically adjust their attention across students as the class progresses based on grades. But at the same time teachers should not just be the pawns of parents. A parent shouldn't be able to just demand extra credit work for their child. This sort of special exception is something that should only be made by the teacher, at the teacher's complete discretion, if they legitimately think there's a truly good reason for treating that student differently.
  - ineedasername 8y ago
    In that case, I agree. I don't change final grades. By that point, students have had plenty of opportunity to approve upon the negative grades that feed the final one.
- 8y ago
chupasaurus 8y ago
I had a professor who taught algebra and pedagogy of math in local university. He has a nice scheme for grades (1 to 5 in Russia are F to A respectively): each lecture except the first starts with 3-5 minute test on previous topics, marks for working at practice hours and final exam. The grade was calculated as an average of avg(tests)+avg(practice)+exam, so you have to work throughout the whole semester or you won't have a chance for C or higher which is a minimum to pass.

by nilkn 8y ago

woolvalley 8y ago

Well it's a pay issue too isn't it? If a family paid for the teachers time for extra work, then I'm guessing the pushback wouldn't be as bad.

nilkn 8y ago
I was tempted to agree when I read this, but then I thought that this creates an unfair advantage for parents who can afford to pay for extra time from the teacher.
- tokyodude 8y ago
  So the parent with more money pay for a different tutor. What's the difference? Or are suggesting the parents with more money should not be allowed to pay for there kids to do anything a parent with less money can't afford?
  - pnutjam 8y ago
    I have two daughters who took orchestra, we couldn't afford private lessons. They did well, the teacher was excellent and they enjoyed themselves. They never reached the "top" orchestra. Our school has 3 levels. My third daughter played in the band, and we decided that we could finally afford $20 a week lessons from one of the instructors. She's in the top band and got to play in the county competitions. She's had alot more opportunity. I don't personally think she's significantly better, even though the lessons have helped her notice certain shortcomings more quickly. I do think she's noticed more by the band leaders.
  - alistairSH 8y ago
    The problem isn’t with the parent paying for tutoring, but with the teacher receiving pay for tutoring. It creates a perverseincentive for the teacher to grade students harshly until/unless they pay up for tutoring.
jogjayr 8y ago
It's not a big leap from "pay extra for extra credit assignments to improve grade" to "pay extra to improve grade". I'm not suggesting that the vast majority of teachers would be tempted or give in to bribery. But it sets up perverse incentives and the optics are terrible. It's also unfair to students who didn't do well and whose families can't afford to pay the teacher to grade their extra credit assignments.
- ineedasername 8y ago
  I've hearrd of teachers in the local school district that offer for-pay tutoring to their students... It's always struck me as something of a conflict of interest, but I'm really not sure how I feel about it.
- anticensor 8y ago
  The problem is determining where the line lies between teacher/instructor bribery and worthy lesson to learn.
kaitai 8y ago
Yeah, then I can feel like I'm selling grades to the highest bidder too. I didn't sign up for prostitution: the only reason I'm cool with the low pay is the purity & honesty of the job.

ineedasername 8y ago

I don't think "everyone knows this", not to the degree you indicate. Yes there is a balance to be made, but I and many of my colleagues believe the opportunity for learning shouldn't stop once an assignment has been graded. We believe that such grades are in fact the diagnostic we should use to determine which students need to be helped along, given the opportunity to learn the material better. You also say that a student who does poorly didn't put in the time. In some cases yes, but broadly it's simply not true. I've analyzed LMS data at large scales: Students who get F's don't put in much time on average. But students who get D's, on average, are putting in just as much time as the students getting A's and B's. The F students I can't do much about, with some notable exceptions, they mostly don't want to help themselves. But the rest are teachable. For me and my like minded colleagues, it's not that we expect ourselves or others to do more work. It's that our vision of what the job's baseline work requirements entail goes beyond a rigid grading process that implicitly assumes that learning takes place in discrete bits of time, uniformly for all students.

nilkn 8y ago
Using intermediate grades to figure out which students to focus on is perfectly fine, and in fact I'm not sure it has much to do with what's being discussed. We're talking about a teacher being asked by a parent to create extra credit work so a student can jump from an A- to an A so they have better odds of getting into X/Y/Z. I don't think anyone is suggesting that teachers can't dynamically adjust their attention across students as the class progresses based on grades. But at the same time teachers should not just be the pawns of parents. A parent shouldn't be able to just demand extra credit work for their child. This sort of special exception is something that should only be made by the teacher, at the teacher's complete discretion, if they legitimately think there's a truly good reason for treating that student differently.
- ineedasername 8y ago
  In that case, I agree. I don't change final grades. By that point, students have had plenty of opportunity to approve upon the negative grades that feed the final one.
8y ago

chupasaurus 8y ago

I had a professor who taught algebra and pedagogy of math in local university. He has a nice scheme for grades (1 to 5 in Russia are F to A respectively): each lecture except the first starts with 3-5 minute test on previous topics, marks for working at practice hours and final exam. The grade was calculated as an average of avg(tests)+avg(practice)+exam, so you have to work throughout the whole semester or you won't have a chance for C or higher which is a minimum to pass.