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> "Elon stretches the truth constantly." That's putting it gently. Putting aside his twitter spats, Tesla is still prominently advertising "Full Self-Driving

> "Elon stretches the truth constantly." That's putting it gently. Putting aside his twitter spats, Tesla is still prominently advertising "Full Self-Driving Hardware on All Cars"[0] even though their cars do not contain LIDAR, which essentially every expert in the field unconnected to Tesla seems to agree is necessary to implement Level 5 self driving cars[1][2]. [0] https://www.tesla.com/autopilot https://www.tesla.com/autopilot [1] https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/mobileye-ceo-tesla-self-driving-cars/ https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/mobileye-ceo-tesla-self-d... [2]https://www.wired.com/story/lidar-self-driving-cars-luminar-video/ https://www.wired.com/story/lidar-self-driving-cars-luminar-...

hndamien 8y ago
I think “every expert” may be stretching the truth, unless you are proclaiming that Tesla has no experts working on this.
- theptip 8y ago
  They said > every expert in the field unconnected to Tesla
  - hndamien 8y ago
    The edit button is a wonderful tool. Besides, the fact that I can drive my car relying primarily on two eyes and a brain suggests that it must be possible to extract and process the information to drive a car with stereo vision, and without LIDAR. LIDAR may become cheap and small enough that it should be added purely from a safety perspective - more better information is better. However, I think plenty of experts would agree that theoretically it is possible without. Here are some experts that think it works without LIDAR, so you may wish to edit “every”. https://arxiv.org/pdf/1708.09839.pdf https://arxiv.org/pdf/1708.09839.pdf
    - darkpuma 8y ago
      Even if they can make it work, they note that Tesla's hardware is still inadequate. Tesla boast 8 cameras providing 360 degree coverage, but the authors of that paper are unimpressed: >"The autopilot feature [19] in cars produced by Tesla Motors enables autonomous driving on highways through a combination of a forward-looking camera and radar. Due to the limited field-of-view, these cars cannot execute autonomous driving in cities which require surround perception." So while you may have found some experts who think Level 5 automation can be done using only CV, you've only reinforced my main point that Elon Musk is not a trustworthy person.
- darkpuma 8y ago
  > every expert in the field unconnected to Tesla I'm saying that when you ask people not getting a paycheck from Tesla, they say that LIDAR is required. Very notably including Mobileye, who severed their connection with Tesla over this disagreement. Mobileye is particularly notable since they invested heavily into camera-only solutions; Mobileye has a strong financial incentive to dismiss LIDAR, yet they don't. It's obvious why Tesla doesn't either put LIDAR in all their cars or remove the self driving hardware claims from their advertising; Elon wants to have his cake and eat it too. More from mobileye: > Level 3 – Autonomous Under Certain Circumstances [...] Mobileye expects this additional redundancy to be covered by additional sensors like radar and lidar (for shape and object detection) and by Mobileye’s REM™ localization map for identification of safe drivable paths and knowledge of intersections and other traffic signage or instructions. https://www.mobileye.com/future-of-mobility/history-autonomous-driving/ https://www.mobileye.com/future-of-mobility/history-autonomo... Harsher words than mine, from GM’s director of autonomous vehicle integration Scott Miller: >“The level of technology and knowing what it takes to do the mission, to say you can be a full Level 5 with just cameras and radars is not physically possible,” said Miller. He went on to add that Musk is “full of crap.” https://futurism.com/gm-expert-calls-elon-musk-full-of-crap-for-saying-teslas-can-achieve-level-5-autonomy/ https://futurism.com/gm-expert-calls-elon-musk-full-of-crap-... An article about the angular resolution limitations of radar (overcoming this is exactly what LIDAR is for): >Raj Rajkumar, who researches autonomous driving at Carnegie Mellon University, thinks those assumptions concern one of Tesla's key sensors. “The radars they use are apparently meant for detecting moving objects (as typically used in adaptive cruise control systems), and seem to be not very good in detecting stationary objects," he says. >That's not nearly as crazy as it may seem. Radar knows the speed of any object it sees, and is also simple, cheap, robust, and easy to build into a front bumper. But it also detects lots of things a car rolling down the highway needn't worry about, like overhead highway signs, loose hubcaps, or speed limit signs. So engineers make a choice, telling the car to ignore these things and keep its eyes on the other cars on the road: They program the system to focus on the stuff that's moving. https://www.wired.co.uk/article/tesla-fire-truck-crash-autopilot-accident https://www.wired.co.uk/article/tesla-fire-truck-crash-autop... If you search around for this, you'll find there are A LOT of people calling BS on Tesla's claims that cameras and radar are adequate sensors for Level 5 automation. Tesla's website hints at none of this. The only caveats I see from them are concerning software and regulation: >Please note that Self-Driving functionality is dependent upon extensive software validation and regulatory approval, which may vary widely by jurisdiction. It is not possible to know exactly when each element of the functionality described above will be available, as this is highly dependent on local regulatory approval. Please note also that using a self-driving Tesla for car sharing and ride hailing for friends and family is fine, but doing so for revenue purposes will only be permissible on the Tesla Network, details of which will be released next year.
joefourier 8y ago
Level 5 self driving is still theoretical at this point, and theoretically speaking, there is no reason to assume LIDAR is absolutely necessary for it. Computer vision based pipelines are theoretically capable of providing the same depth information as LIDAR, using stereo, camera arrays or even monocular SLAM. The main obstacle for self-driving car is much more on the processing side than on the sensor side. After all, humans are able to drive with audio + stereo vision that's not even 360 degrees. It could very well be that the reason Tesla's statement about "full self-driving car HW" is inaccurate is because of the lack of sufficient onboard computing power rather than the lack of sensors (IIRC they have an Nvidia X2 and GP106 onboard, which only have a total of about 4 SPFP TFLOPs).
- darkpuma 8y ago
  No matter which way you slice it, Tesla should not be claiming the hardware required is present if the hardware requirements are, at best, theoretical.
  - extrapickles 8y ago
    If it turns out the hardware is not good enough I would expect them to replace it with something that is once hardware requirements are known.
    - darkpuma 8y ago
      They've given themselves enough wiggle room to never roll out Level 5 automation (and thus never admit they were wrong about what hardware it would require.) >"Please note that Self-Driving functionality is dependent upon extensive software validation and regulatory approval, which may vary widely by jurisdiction. It is not possible to know exactly when each element of the functionality described above will be available, as this is highly dependent on local regulatory approval."
    - Jarbooski 8y ago
      And who will pay for it? Or do you believe it's profits from here to infinity, as Elon claims?
grecy 8y ago
> their cars do not contain LIDAR, which essentially every expert in the field unconnected to Tesla seems to agree is necessary to implement Level 5 self driving cars Calm down a second. Elon/Tesla are trying to do things differently/do things that other people are not or think can't be done. To name a few" Every "export in the field" said you can't land an orbital class booster vertically. Every "expert in the field" has not figured out how to save billions and years digging tunnels. Every "expert in the field" seems to design electric cars that look like a cartoon joke. Every "expert in the field" was pretty sure Tesla could never be profitable. Don't confuse "has never been done before" with "Can't be done". Let the results speak for what's possible.
iEchoic 8y ago
> every expert in the field unconnected to Tesla seems to agree [lidar] is necessary to implement Level 5 self driving cars As someone that doesn't know anything about self-driving cars, how can this be true? Humans can drive cars with only visual input. Why can't AI?
- obmelvin 8y ago
  A good way IMO to think about it is by looking at airplanes. Birds fly by flapping their wings to generate thrust, but planes use turbines to generate thrust. Just because humans use vision to drive, doesn't mean that we should restrict ourselves to vision for cars. Also, as another comment points out, our visual system does a lot more than just 'see' in the literal light/color processing sense that a camera does
- rincebrain 8y ago
  Humans can do a lot of things we don't understand how to convince software (...or other humans who don't intrinsically learn it very well) to do. Lidar lets you get a high degree of accuracy for certain variables in your model - because you can know fairly accurately when and how strong the signal you sent out is, you can have a fairly high degree of confidence when you get reflection of how far away the object is, and feed that into your persistent idea of the world, versus having to use a bunch of heuristics to try and extract that from purely audiovisual data. (That's my understanding, at least - I don't work in that industry.)
- rohit2412 8y ago
  Because current AI does not seem as good at generalizing as humans?
  - iEchoic 8y ago
    Since level 5 driving has not yet been achieved, aren't we talking about future AI, not current AI?
    - darkpuma 8y ago
iamcreasy 8y ago
Elon said it before, LIDER only gives you locally optimal solution, and it's not enough to build a full self-driving vehicle.
- darkpuma 8y ago
  LIDAR doesn't compute solutions, it's a sensor that gives you accurate information about the environment. Far more precise and accurate than any current computer vision system. What you do with that data is up to the rest of the system. Elon has publicly trashed LIDAR plenty of times. I think you should treat his rants as defenses of his products' reputation, not earnest impartial engineering appraisals. If Elon were to admit that LIDAR will play a vital role in Level 5 automation, he'd be admitting that his company has been mistaken or lying for years. I think Elon's personality precludes him coming clean on something like this. > "it's not enough to build a full self-driving vehicle." As far as I know, nobody is trying to build a Level 5 system using only LIDAR. The serious teams who are working on this problem are all using LIDAR in addition to cameras and radars. LIDAR can't read a street sign; cameras and computer vision will obviously play an important role in Level 5 systems for that reason and more. But the teams that aren't trying to use automation hype to sell luxury cars don't share Elon's enthusiasm for CV/radar with no LIDAR.
DeonPenny 8y ago
Isn't lidar super cheap now? Couldn't they retrofit it.

hndamien 8y ago

I think “every expert” may be stretching the truth, unless you are proclaiming that Tesla has no experts working on this.

theptip 8y ago
They said > every expert in the field unconnected to Tesla
- hndamien 8y ago
  The edit button is a wonderful tool. Besides, the fact that I can drive my car relying primarily on two eyes and a brain suggests that it must be possible to extract and process the information to drive a car with stereo vision, and without LIDAR. LIDAR may become cheap and small enough that it should be added purely from a safety perspective - more better information is better. However, I think plenty of experts would agree that theoretically it is possible without. Here are some experts that think it works without LIDAR, so you may wish to edit “every”. https://arxiv.org/pdf/1708.09839.pdf https://arxiv.org/pdf/1708.09839.pdf
  - darkpuma 8y ago
    Even if they can make it work, they note that Tesla's hardware is still inadequate. Tesla boast 8 cameras providing 360 degree coverage, but the authors of that paper are unimpressed: >"The autopilot feature [19] in cars produced by Tesla Motors enables autonomous driving on highways through a combination of a forward-looking camera and radar. Due to the limited field-of-view, these cars cannot execute autonomous driving in cities which require surround perception." So while you may have found some experts who think Level 5 automation can be done using only CV, you've only reinforced my main point that Elon Musk is not a trustworthy person.
darkpuma 8y ago
> every expert in the field unconnected to Tesla I'm saying that when you ask people not getting a paycheck from Tesla, they say that LIDAR is required. Very notably including Mobileye, who severed their connection with Tesla over this disagreement. Mobileye is particularly notable since they invested heavily into camera-only solutions; Mobileye has a strong financial incentive to dismiss LIDAR, yet they don't. It's obvious why Tesla doesn't either put LIDAR in all their cars or remove the self driving hardware claims from their advertising; Elon wants to have his cake and eat it too. More from mobileye: > Level 3 – Autonomous Under Certain Circumstances [...] Mobileye expects this additional redundancy to be covered by additional sensors like radar and lidar (for shape and object detection) and by Mobileye’s REM™ localization map for identification of safe drivable paths and knowledge of intersections and other traffic signage or instructions. https://www.mobileye.com/future-of-mobility/history-autonomous-driving/ https://www.mobileye.com/future-of-mobility/history-autonomo... Harsher words than mine, from GM’s director of autonomous vehicle integration Scott Miller: >“The level of technology and knowing what it takes to do the mission, to say you can be a full Level 5 with just cameras and radars is not physically possible,” said Miller. He went on to add that Musk is “full of crap.” https://futurism.com/gm-expert-calls-elon-musk-full-of-crap-for-saying-teslas-can-achieve-level-5-autonomy/ https://futurism.com/gm-expert-calls-elon-musk-full-of-crap-... An article about the angular resolution limitations of radar (overcoming this is exactly what LIDAR is for): >Raj Rajkumar, who researches autonomous driving at Carnegie Mellon University, thinks those assumptions concern one of Tesla's key sensors. “The radars they use are apparently meant for detecting moving objects (as typically used in adaptive cruise control systems), and seem to be not very good in detecting stationary objects," he says. >That's not nearly as crazy as it may seem. Radar knows the speed of any object it sees, and is also simple, cheap, robust, and easy to build into a front bumper. But it also detects lots of things a car rolling down the highway needn't worry about, like overhead highway signs, loose hubcaps, or speed limit signs. So engineers make a choice, telling the car to ignore these things and keep its eyes on the other cars on the road: They program the system to focus on the stuff that's moving. https://www.wired.co.uk/article/tesla-fire-truck-crash-autopilot-accident https://www.wired.co.uk/article/tesla-fire-truck-crash-autop... If you search around for this, you'll find there are A LOT of people calling BS on Tesla's claims that cameras and radar are adequate sensors for Level 5 automation. Tesla's website hints at none of this. The only caveats I see from them are concerning software and regulation: >Please note that Self-Driving functionality is dependent upon extensive software validation and regulatory approval, which may vary widely by jurisdiction. It is not possible to know exactly when each element of the functionality described above will be available, as this is highly dependent on local regulatory approval. Please note also that using a self-driving Tesla for car sharing and ride hailing for friends and family is fine, but doing so for revenue purposes will only be permissible on the Tesla Network, details of which will be released next year.

joefourier 8y ago

Level 5 self driving is still theoretical at this point, and theoretically speaking, there is no reason to assume LIDAR is absolutely necessary for it. Computer vision based pipelines are theoretically capable of providing the same depth information as LIDAR, using stereo, camera arrays or even monocular SLAM. The main obstacle for self-driving car is much more on the processing side than on the sensor side. After all, humans are able to drive with audio + stereo vision that's not even 360 degrees. It could very well be that the reason Tesla's statement about "full self-driving car HW" is inaccurate is because of the lack of sufficient onboard computing power rather than the lack of sensors (IIRC they have an Nvidia X2 and GP106 onboard, which only have a total of about 4 SPFP TFLOPs).

darkpuma 8y ago
No matter which way you slice it, Tesla should not be claiming the hardware required is present if the hardware requirements are, at best, theoretical.
- extrapickles 8y ago
  If it turns out the hardware is not good enough I would expect them to replace it with something that is once hardware requirements are known.
  - darkpuma 8y ago
    They've given themselves enough wiggle room to never roll out Level 5 automation (and thus never admit they were wrong about what hardware it would require.) >"Please note that Self-Driving functionality is dependent upon extensive software validation and regulatory approval, which may vary widely by jurisdiction. It is not possible to know exactly when each element of the functionality described above will be available, as this is highly dependent on local regulatory approval."
  - Jarbooski 8y ago
    And who will pay for it? Or do you believe it's profits from here to infinity, as Elon claims?

grecy 8y ago

> their cars do not contain LIDAR, which essentially every expert in the field unconnected to Tesla seems to agree is necessary to implement Level 5 self driving cars Calm down a second. Elon/Tesla are trying to do things differently/do things that other people are not or think can't be done. To name a few" Every "export in the field" said you can't land an orbital class booster vertically. Every "expert in the field" has not figured out how to save billions and years digging tunnels. Every "expert in the field" seems to design electric cars that look like a cartoon joke. Every "expert in the field" was pretty sure Tesla could never be profitable. Don't confuse "has never been done before" with "Can't be done". Let the results speak for what's possible.

iEchoic 8y ago

> every expert in the field unconnected to Tesla seems to agree [lidar] is necessary to implement Level 5 self driving cars As someone that doesn't know anything about self-driving cars, how can this be true? Humans can drive cars with only visual input. Why can't AI?

obmelvin 8y ago
A good way IMO to think about it is by looking at airplanes. Birds fly by flapping their wings to generate thrust, but planes use turbines to generate thrust. Just because humans use vision to drive, doesn't mean that we should restrict ourselves to vision for cars. Also, as another comment points out, our visual system does a lot more than just 'see' in the literal light/color processing sense that a camera does
rincebrain 8y ago
Humans can do a lot of things we don't understand how to convince software (...or other humans who don't intrinsically learn it very well) to do. Lidar lets you get a high degree of accuracy for certain variables in your model - because you can know fairly accurately when and how strong the signal you sent out is, you can have a fairly high degree of confidence when you get reflection of how far away the object is, and feed that into your persistent idea of the world, versus having to use a bunch of heuristics to try and extract that from purely audiovisual data. (That's my understanding, at least - I don't work in that industry.)
rohit2412 8y ago
Because current AI does not seem as good at generalizing as humans?
- iEchoic 8y ago
  Since level 5 driving has not yet been achieved, aren't we talking about future AI, not current AI?
  - darkpuma 8y ago

iamcreasy 8y ago

Elon said it before, LIDER only gives you locally optimal solution, and it's not enough to build a full self-driving vehicle.

darkpuma 8y ago
LIDAR doesn't compute solutions, it's a sensor that gives you accurate information about the environment. Far more precise and accurate than any current computer vision system. What you do with that data is up to the rest of the system. Elon has publicly trashed LIDAR plenty of times. I think you should treat his rants as defenses of his products' reputation, not earnest impartial engineering appraisals. If Elon were to admit that LIDAR will play a vital role in Level 5 automation, he'd be admitting that his company has been mistaken or lying for years. I think Elon's personality precludes him coming clean on something like this. > "it's not enough to build a full self-driving vehicle." As far as I know, nobody is trying to build a Level 5 system using only LIDAR. The serious teams who are working on this problem are all using LIDAR in addition to cameras and radars. LIDAR can't read a street sign; cameras and computer vision will obviously play an important role in Level 5 systems for that reason and more. But the teams that aren't trying to use automation hype to sell luxury cars don't share Elon's enthusiasm for CV/radar with no LIDAR.

DeonPenny 8y ago

Isn't lidar super cheap now? Couldn't they retrofit it.