6 ms·

This was tried some places in the US in the part. Unfortunately most times they failed. Unable to attract enough people, they felt even less alive than the stre

This was tried some places in the US in the part. Unfortunately most times they failed. Unable to attract enough people, they felt even less alive than the streets and entered a cycle a of death. However there are some signs of a rebirth: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275887405_American_downtown_pedestrian_malls_rise_fall_and_rebirth https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275887405_American_...

TulliusCicero 8y ago
Right, you can't just shut down an area to cars and call it a day, if the overall area is still designed around cars. To really make it work, the area has to be accessible to walking (and public transport). Which usually means higher population densities than most US cities -- even major cities -- have, and better public transit.
- white-flame 8y ago
  Also massive parking structures. It's the interface between car-places and walking-places, necessary for the otherwise car-centric norm outside.
  - chmod775 8y ago
    Virtually no Fußgängerzone in Germany has that, but it might be worth consideration for lack of better alternatives like public transport.
    - _ph_ 8y ago
      A lot of German cities has large parking garages acrosss the city centers. So it is quite possible to drive to those garages by car and then continue by foot. Cologne for example had an electronic system in place even 30 years ago, which would account all free parking spots in the big garages. Those numbers would be relayed to traffic signs at the big roads leading into the city. So while approaching the inner city you could see the total amount of free parking spaces and as you get closer you would get signs pointing out this number for the individual garages. So it was quite easy to directly find a parking slot as long as there was a reasonable amount of slot left.
  - TulliusCicero 8y ago
    You need some parking yes, although it doesn't have to be right outside the pedestrian zone (and in fact that would almost certainly be a terrible idea for a variety of reasons). In Munich, for example, the city center is largely car-free as far as I can tell, but parking nearby is still limited and expensive. That's okay, because transit is good enough to where you can park more on the outskirts of the city and take the S-Bahn in. I haven't really seen many "massive parking structures" here that match your description, but then again I don't have a car so I'm not really looking for them. But really in Munich, even if you're living in a suburb of Munich surrounded by farmland, they're compact enough to where almost everybody can walk or bike to the train station that goes to the city center. Check out Groebenzell if you don't believe me: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Gr%C3%B6benzell/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x479e78d7a145c0ff:0x27c53129098974e6?ved=2ahUKEwimoovkn8XfAhUhNOwKHWYuDQ0Q8gEwD3oECAYQCA https://www.google.com/maps/place/Gr%C3%B6benzell/data=!4m2!...
- alistairSH 8y ago
  Right, you can't just shut down an area to cars and call it a day, if the overall area is still designed around cars. My home town (Reston, VA - outside DC) is a good example of this. The subway is in the process of being expanded to reach Dulles Airport, with several stops in Reston. The area was designated a transit hub, with zoning changes to allow more density. But, the developers and county officials continue to build campus-style offices surrounded by massive parking areas. The streets are wide, fast, and not pedestrian- or bicycle-friendly. It's as if they expect to throw up some 15-20 story apartment buildings, a few office towers, and magically have a lovely "downtown". Without changes to parking allowances (fewer spaces per unit), allowing smaller setbacks to property lines (maybe?), narrower roads to slow traffic, and other similar changes, we're going to end up with a massive, gridlocked mess.
darkerside 8y ago
I haven't been to Times Square in a while, but I have to assume that's a good example of a busy pedestrian zone in America.
- TulliusCicero 8y ago
  I wouldn't say so. It felt more accidental to me than anything else. Like they just took a place designed for cars, shut the cars out, and yeah it's busy because it's in NYC and there's plenty of density and shops, but the actual urban design itself still felt largely bad and dumb. Maybe it's changed since I've been, though.
  - romwell 8y ago
    > Like they just took a place designed for cars NYC was developed in its current form, with high-rises and all, well before cars were commonplace[1]. So no, they didn't take a place designed for cars, and yes, that's why it actually works when you take the cars out of the equation again. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_buildings_in_New_York_City#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_buildings_in_N...
    - TulliusCicero 8y ago
      > NYC was developed in its current form, with high-rises and all, well before cars were commonplace[1]. Ha, no it was not. Oh, it was originally developed sans cars, that's true. But that's not the same thing as its current form. Cities are continually being redeveloped after all. You think Amsterdam was always so bike-friendly? Try googling for what it was like in the early 70's, before the "Stop De Kindermoord" campaign.
      - romwell 8y ago
        Please do tell how NYC has been radically re-developed since 1920's.
- dylan604 8y ago
woolvalley 8y ago
I would call them malls in america ;p

TulliusCicero 8y ago

Right, you can't just shut down an area to cars and call it a day, if the overall area is still designed around cars. To really make it work, the area has to be accessible to walking (and public transport). Which usually means higher population densities than most US cities -- even major cities -- have, and better public transit.

white-flame 8y ago
Also massive parking structures. It's the interface between car-places and walking-places, necessary for the otherwise car-centric norm outside.
- chmod775 8y ago
  Virtually no Fußgängerzone in Germany has that, but it might be worth consideration for lack of better alternatives like public transport.
  - _ph_ 8y ago
    A lot of German cities has large parking garages acrosss the city centers. So it is quite possible to drive to those garages by car and then continue by foot. Cologne for example had an electronic system in place even 30 years ago, which would account all free parking spots in the big garages. Those numbers would be relayed to traffic signs at the big roads leading into the city. So while approaching the inner city you could see the total amount of free parking spaces and as you get closer you would get signs pointing out this number for the individual garages. So it was quite easy to directly find a parking slot as long as there was a reasonable amount of slot left.
- TulliusCicero 8y ago
  You need some parking yes, although it doesn't have to be right outside the pedestrian zone (and in fact that would almost certainly be a terrible idea for a variety of reasons). In Munich, for example, the city center is largely car-free as far as I can tell, but parking nearby is still limited and expensive. That's okay, because transit is good enough to where you can park more on the outskirts of the city and take the S-Bahn in. I haven't really seen many "massive parking structures" here that match your description, but then again I don't have a car so I'm not really looking for them. But really in Munich, even if you're living in a suburb of Munich surrounded by farmland, they're compact enough to where almost everybody can walk or bike to the train station that goes to the city center. Check out Groebenzell if you don't believe me: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Gr%C3%B6benzell/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x479e78d7a145c0ff:0x27c53129098974e6?ved=2ahUKEwimoovkn8XfAhUhNOwKHWYuDQ0Q8gEwD3oECAYQCA https://www.google.com/maps/place/Gr%C3%B6benzell/data=!4m2!...
alistairSH 8y ago
Right, you can't just shut down an area to cars and call it a day, if the overall area is still designed around cars. My home town (Reston, VA - outside DC) is a good example of this. The subway is in the process of being expanded to reach Dulles Airport, with several stops in Reston. The area was designated a transit hub, with zoning changes to allow more density. But, the developers and county officials continue to build campus-style offices surrounded by massive parking areas. The streets are wide, fast, and not pedestrian- or bicycle-friendly. It's as if they expect to throw up some 15-20 story apartment buildings, a few office towers, and magically have a lovely "downtown". Without changes to parking allowances (fewer spaces per unit), allowing smaller setbacks to property lines (maybe?), narrower roads to slow traffic, and other similar changes, we're going to end up with a massive, gridlocked mess.

darkerside 8y ago

I haven't been to Times Square in a while, but I have to assume that's a good example of a busy pedestrian zone in America.

TulliusCicero 8y ago
I wouldn't say so. It felt more accidental to me than anything else. Like they just took a place designed for cars, shut the cars out, and yeah it's busy because it's in NYC and there's plenty of density and shops, but the actual urban design itself still felt largely bad and dumb. Maybe it's changed since I've been, though.
- romwell 8y ago
  > Like they just took a place designed for cars NYC was developed in its current form, with high-rises and all, well before cars were commonplace[1]. So no, they didn't take a place designed for cars, and yes, that's why it actually works when you take the cars out of the equation again. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_buildings_in_New_York_City#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_buildings_in_N...
  - TulliusCicero 8y ago
    > NYC was developed in its current form, with high-rises and all, well before cars were commonplace[1]. Ha, no it was not. Oh, it was originally developed sans cars, that's true. But that's not the same thing as its current form. Cities are continually being redeveloped after all. You think Amsterdam was always so bike-friendly? Try googling for what it was like in the early 70's, before the "Stop De Kindermoord" campaign.
    - romwell 8y ago
      Please do tell how NYC has been radically re-developed since 1920's.
dylan604 8y ago

woolvalley 8y ago

I would call them malls in america ;p