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Exactly! I don't understand all the complaining about the complexity of the front-end; if you don't like modern front-end tools you're not obligated to use them

Exactly! I don't understand all the complaining about the complexity of the front-end; if you don't like modern front-end tools you're not obligated to use them, all the old tools work just fine. Just because someone releases their own work for free on the internet doesn't mean you're obligated to use it. If you don't understand what problems a particular tool solves, you definitely shouldn't be using it. Stick to what you know or deal with the learning curve. It's literally a software engineer's job to figure out the best tools to solve the problem at the lowest cost, if you're just picking the most popular tools because they're popular then you are to blame. I don't buy the employment gripe either. If you don't like working with the tools that are popular in front-end development then it's time to pick a different job. There's plenty of work in java, ruby, c#, swift, go, kotlin, cpp etc, and a bunch of legacy PHP/JS systems that function in completely different paradigms and ecosystems. If you're fresh out of school and JS is the only language you know and you're frustrated by all the complexity, that's not anyone's fault except your own lack of experience. Stop expecting everyone to stop working on free tools because they confuse you. /rant off

noitsnot 8y ago
It's not that simple. If you don't like them, you have no choice. Every company from large to small has jumped on the bandwagon. Maybe I'm wrong, but companies want frontend dev with angular and react, but the complexity is at a point where you need a back-end who understands data types and CS. So, you're essentially taking a discounted rate or front-end pay while providing back-end. A "Full stack" dev or worse, a Graphic Designer who is expected to do front-end.
- root_axis 8y ago
  > It's not that simple. If you don't like them, you have no choice. I already addressed that. If you don't like the contemporary front-end tools there are plenty of other programming domains to work in that use other languages and tools. There are also many huge legacy JS systems (especially in the corporate world) that need traditional JS skillsets. > but the complexity is at a point where you need a back-end who understands data types and CS I would argue that front-end developers should already be expected to understand "data types and CS" otherwise they should be earning a designer salary instead of an engineer salary (no disrespect to designers, what they do is also complex, but engineers are paid more on average). > A "Full stack" dev. I disagree. A full stack dev, in addition to front-end, would be expected to also understand how to wire-up back-end services and databases and create abstractions that make this data available for the front-end or other back-end consumers. There aren't really any positions with the exclusive front-end title that also expects any of that. Being able to configure webpack or babel is not "back end" or "full stack", webpack is just a pre-processing tool, not unlike any of the other myriad front-end tools that have existed for years (e.g. sass, less, haml, compass etc)
ndnxhs 8y ago
Its pretty much impossible to do frontend dev without bringing on the whole modern js bundle. As soon as you want to use any js library you have to set up npm, yarn and webpack before you can even get it working.
- root_axis 8y ago
  Then don't use modern tools. If you want the power of modern tools... then of course you have to use them. I am just not understanding the complaint.

noitsnot 8y ago

It's not that simple. If you don't like them, you have no choice. Every company from large to small has jumped on the bandwagon. Maybe I'm wrong, but companies want frontend dev with angular and react, but the complexity is at a point where you need a back-end who understands data types and CS. So, you're essentially taking a discounted rate or front-end pay while providing back-end. A "Full stack" dev or worse, a Graphic Designer who is expected to do front-end.

root_axis 8y ago
> It's not that simple. If you don't like them, you have no choice. I already addressed that. If you don't like the contemporary front-end tools there are plenty of other programming domains to work in that use other languages and tools. There are also many huge legacy JS systems (especially in the corporate world) that need traditional JS skillsets. > but the complexity is at a point where you need a back-end who understands data types and CS I would argue that front-end developers should already be expected to understand "data types and CS" otherwise they should be earning a designer salary instead of an engineer salary (no disrespect to designers, what they do is also complex, but engineers are paid more on average). > A "Full stack" dev. I disagree. A full stack dev, in addition to front-end, would be expected to also understand how to wire-up back-end services and databases and create abstractions that make this data available for the front-end or other back-end consumers. There aren't really any positions with the exclusive front-end title that also expects any of that. Being able to configure webpack or babel is not "back end" or "full stack", webpack is just a pre-processing tool, not unlike any of the other myriad front-end tools that have existed for years (e.g. sass, less, haml, compass etc)

ndnxhs 8y ago

Its pretty much impossible to do frontend dev without bringing on the whole modern js bundle. As soon as you want to use any js library you have to set up npm, yarn and webpack before you can even get it working.

root_axis 8y ago
Then don't use modern tools. If you want the power of modern tools... then of course you have to use them. I am just not understanding the complaint.