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Hmm, always suspect when you see a thesis about a large and varied group of societies doing anything en masse. For example, today Iran is about 20% the size of

Hmm, always suspect when you see a thesis about a large and varied group of societies doing anything en masse. For example, today Iran is about 20% the size of the USA, but produces nearly as many engineers[1], in spite of being an Islamic republic. 1: https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2015/06/09/the-countries-with-the-most-engineering-graduates-infographic/#c997570667d6 https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2015/06/09/the-co...

Wildgoose 8y ago
Excellent point - but to what extent is this because Iran (or Persia as was) has been an ancient developed civilisation reaching back into antiquity, unlike much more recent (Arab) nations such as Saudi Arabia? Or in other words, to what extent is this a cultural issue rather than a religious one?
- blacksmith_tb 8y ago
  Saudi Arabia has made significant investments in STEM[1], so I am not sure it is an ideal counterexample, but a corroborating piece of evidence would be Turkey's higher ranking in STEM graduates than the US[2]. 1: https://www.usnews.com/education/arab-region-universities/engineering https://www.usnews.com/education/arab-region-universities/en... 2: https://www.businessinsider.com/most-technological-countries-lag-behind-in-science-2015-12#1-south-korea-32-had-the-top-10s-largest-drop-from-39-in-2002-even-though-the-country-retained-its-position-at-the-top-of-the-oecds-list-10 https://www.businessinsider.com/most-technological-countries...
- charlysl 8y ago
  Iran has a glorious past, but, by the end of the 19th century it was unbelievably backwards, specially when compared to an encroaching Europe. For instance, there were no roads at all. All transport was by camels and mules, still a land of caravansarais. There was no police, in fact, there was no state as we understand it; all the shah did was stay all day in the haram. The only institution that cared at all for the people was the clergy. The old dynasty collapsed in early 20th century, and the new shah, Reza, tried to emulate his model Ataturk and modernize the country in the western fashion. Basically, what they attempted was what the Illustration monarchs did in Europe in the 18th century. He and his son went a long way in doing this, but also clashed badly with the mullahs. The clash with the West and modernity was brutal, and it's consequences can be seen all the way to our days.
countrymac 8y ago
Iran is not an Arab country.
woodandsteel 8y ago
>Hmm, always suspect when you see a thesis about a large and varied group of societies doing anything en masse. No, history is not just a confusing mass of details. There are larger patterns, and I bet you make use of them in your own thinking. More specifically, the picture the author presents is in fact what the scholars who have studied the issues have determined to be true.
MichaelMoser123 8y ago
Is there any hard / up to date data? I could only find this figure on tertiary education by country from the OECD (and the do not cover Iran), however Turkey isn't doing bad at all here. https://data.oecd.org/eduatt/population-with-tertiary-education.htm https://data.oecd.org/eduatt/population-with-tertiary-educat...
charlysl 8y ago
If you really want to upset an Iranian, call him an Arab. Iranians are not Arabs, and their language (and culture) is totally different, in spite of using the same alphabet. This unfortunately common mistake is up there with confusing Spaniards with Mexicans.
- blacksmith_tb 8y ago
  Oh, absolutely - I was responding to the claim in the OP that 'Contemporary Islam is not known for its engagement in the modern scientific project' (the opening sentence), which of course is completely out of step with the title of the piece, given that the three largest Islamic nations (Indonesia, Pakistan, and Iran) are not Arab states.

Wildgoose 8y ago

Excellent point - but to what extent is this because Iran (or Persia as was) has been an ancient developed civilisation reaching back into antiquity, unlike much more recent (Arab) nations such as Saudi Arabia? Or in other words, to what extent is this a cultural issue rather than a religious one?

blacksmith_tb 8y ago
Saudi Arabia has made significant investments in STEM[1], so I am not sure it is an ideal counterexample, but a corroborating piece of evidence would be Turkey's higher ranking in STEM graduates than the US[2]. 1: https://www.usnews.com/education/arab-region-universities/engineering https://www.usnews.com/education/arab-region-universities/en... 2: https://www.businessinsider.com/most-technological-countries-lag-behind-in-science-2015-12#1-south-korea-32-had-the-top-10s-largest-drop-from-39-in-2002-even-though-the-country-retained-its-position-at-the-top-of-the-oecds-list-10 https://www.businessinsider.com/most-technological-countries...
charlysl 8y ago
Iran has a glorious past, but, by the end of the 19th century it was unbelievably backwards, specially when compared to an encroaching Europe. For instance, there were no roads at all. All transport was by camels and mules, still a land of caravansarais. There was no police, in fact, there was no state as we understand it; all the shah did was stay all day in the haram. The only institution that cared at all for the people was the clergy. The old dynasty collapsed in early 20th century, and the new shah, Reza, tried to emulate his model Ataturk and modernize the country in the western fashion. Basically, what they attempted was what the Illustration monarchs did in Europe in the 18th century. He and his son went a long way in doing this, but also clashed badly with the mullahs. The clash with the West and modernity was brutal, and it's consequences can be seen all the way to our days.

countrymac 8y ago

Iran is not an Arab country.

woodandsteel 8y ago

>Hmm, always suspect when you see a thesis about a large and varied group of societies doing anything en masse. No, history is not just a confusing mass of details. There are larger patterns, and I bet you make use of them in your own thinking. More specifically, the picture the author presents is in fact what the scholars who have studied the issues have determined to be true.

MichaelMoser123 8y ago

Is there any hard / up to date data? I could only find this figure on tertiary education by country from the OECD (and the do not cover Iran), however Turkey isn't doing bad at all here. https://data.oecd.org/eduatt/population-with-tertiary-education.htm https://data.oecd.org/eduatt/population-with-tertiary-educat...

charlysl 8y ago

If you really want to upset an Iranian, call him an Arab. Iranians are not Arabs, and their language (and culture) is totally different, in spite of using the same alphabet. This unfortunately common mistake is up there with confusing Spaniards with Mexicans.

blacksmith_tb 8y ago
Oh, absolutely - I was responding to the claim in the OP that 'Contemporary Islam is not known for its engagement in the modern scientific project' (the opening sentence), which of course is completely out of step with the title of the piece, given that the three largest Islamic nations (Indonesia, Pakistan, and Iran) are not Arab states.