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The game still has this balance/inflation problem though, which strangely makes the previously huge unbalanced nature of some of the early cards less powerful.

The game still has this balance/inflation problem though, which strangely makes the previously huge unbalanced nature of some of the early cards less powerful. Over time, the amount of utility for mana cost with the current sets has increased, which means the overpowered cards of the past are 'relatively' less powerful. On the flip side it renders a ridiculous amount of cardboard never-competitive playable again. 2/2 Grizzly Bears with no abilities for G(1)? First turn Savannah Lions used to be huge. For my starting era (late Revised / late Dark) first turn Kird Ape was about the best you could do with the R/G dual-tap land, or maybe something involving Sol Ring.

supernintendo 8y ago
Yeah, a lot of those high mana cost cards from old sets like Legends and The Dark are really bad by today's standards. On the other hand, you have formats like cube draft [1] which let you get play out of pretty much any card throughout MTG's history. [1] https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Cube_Draft https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Cube_Draft
CocaKoala 8y ago
On the other hand, I just came back to Magic after ~15 years out, and some basic utility has gotten more expensive. R used to get you 3 damage back in the day (Lighting Bolt), now it gets you two (Shock); you've gotta go up to 1R if you want the three damage. Counterspell was UU, but now the generic counter is 1UU, Cancel. You can sometimes get rides on top of that, like Sinister Sabotage is 1UU and gets you surveil 1 on top of the counter, but you're not going to get a straight up unconditional counter for two blue like you used to. Looking through the one-drops in Standard right now, I don't see any vanilla 2/2; which one are you thinking of?
- thom 8y ago
  You missed Delver of Secrets and Wild Nacatl while you were away. Death's Shadow is only very loosely a 1-drop creature, being more of a combo card, but perhaps still counts. In Standard right now the level is still above Savannah Lions. Creatures were deliberately pushed to make them more central to competitive play, which is why you got absurd stuff like the Titans in M11. At the same time, Wizards never want a return to the degeneracy of Urza block and so spells are less powerful. They still mess up regularly (Splinter Twin/Deceiver Exarch was an oversight giving a reliably turn 4 combo kill, for example), but it's true that some stuff will probably never reach that peak power level again outside of combat.
  - CocaKoala 8y ago
    Delver of Secrets is a 1/1 that can transform during your upkeep, so it might turn into a 3/2 on your second turn, but it's definitely still conditional and not guaranteed. Wild Nacatl is a 1/1 for G that gets +1/+1 for having a Mountain or a Plains, so again, you're not getting a vanilla 2/2 on turn 1 for it. Also neither of those are in standard right now.
- AmericanChopper 8y ago
  I think this is because they’ve had such a hard time balancing standard, that they’re afraid to put too much power into any set. There was a solid period of having a top tier deck emerging, and then being banned, then re-emerging, and being even more banned... I can’t find the quote, but I’m sure I remember Rosewater saying something to the effect of they can’t put fetches into standard because they’d be too powerful, for example.
yawaworhtttt 8y ago
Yeah, they've pretty much buffed creatures and nerfed noncreature spells. Savannah Lion and Kird Ape used to be huge, now even Nimble Mongoose (a 3/3 "can't be targeted" for G) is deemed underpowered by current Legacy standards, and downright unplayable in Vintage. They've also much pushed the Planeswalker type, and you see plenty of them in Legacy/Modern/Standard; apparently it's a deliberate design decision to make sure that the characters featured in their lore see play at competitive tables. On the other hand, older noncreature spells are still king among their kind. Lightning Bolt, Dark Ritual, Brainstorm, Swords to Plowshares and Glimpse of Nature aren't getting dislodged any time soon.
rkho 8y ago
You might appreciate the Battle Box format: https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/stark-reality-battle-box/ https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/stark-reality-battl... > Battle Box creates a scenario where almost every game of Magic is a good game of Magic. Sometimes you will lose, and if the cards had come in a different order you would have won. You still draw a random card every turn. However, if you wanted to play around what your opponent has and increase your chances of winning, you will be able to. Cards are roughly the same power level, and no one ever gets mana screwed or flooded, so the vast majority of games come down to the decisions you make.
mcphage 8y ago
Some years back they rebalanced the game, making creatures much more powerful, but making spells weaker. I used to play red, so Lightning Bolt was the quintessential magic card for me, but now it’s too powerful to reprint. Creatures on the other hand, way more powerful. But I don’t think they have a power creep problem, although admittedly I only read up on the game periodically, not play. I think they did one main rebalancing, and that’s it. It’s not like cards from a few years ago are unplayable.

supernintendo 8y ago

Yeah, a lot of those high mana cost cards from old sets like Legends and The Dark are really bad by today's standards. On the other hand, you have formats like cube draft [1] which let you get play out of pretty much any card throughout MTG's history. [1] https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Cube_Draft https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Cube_Draft

CocaKoala 8y ago

On the other hand, I just came back to Magic after ~15 years out, and some basic utility has gotten more expensive. R used to get you 3 damage back in the day (Lighting Bolt), now it gets you two (Shock); you've gotta go up to 1R if you want the three damage. Counterspell was UU, but now the generic counter is 1UU, Cancel. You can sometimes get rides on top of that, like Sinister Sabotage is 1UU and gets you surveil 1 on top of the counter, but you're not going to get a straight up unconditional counter for two blue like you used to. Looking through the one-drops in Standard right now, I don't see any vanilla 2/2; which one are you thinking of?

thom 8y ago
You missed Delver of Secrets and Wild Nacatl while you were away. Death's Shadow is only very loosely a 1-drop creature, being more of a combo card, but perhaps still counts. In Standard right now the level is still above Savannah Lions. Creatures were deliberately pushed to make them more central to competitive play, which is why you got absurd stuff like the Titans in M11. At the same time, Wizards never want a return to the degeneracy of Urza block and so spells are less powerful. They still mess up regularly (Splinter Twin/Deceiver Exarch was an oversight giving a reliably turn 4 combo kill, for example), but it's true that some stuff will probably never reach that peak power level again outside of combat.
- CocaKoala 8y ago
  Delver of Secrets is a 1/1 that can transform during your upkeep, so it might turn into a 3/2 on your second turn, but it's definitely still conditional and not guaranteed. Wild Nacatl is a 1/1 for G that gets +1/+1 for having a Mountain or a Plains, so again, you're not getting a vanilla 2/2 on turn 1 for it. Also neither of those are in standard right now.
AmericanChopper 8y ago
I think this is because they’ve had such a hard time balancing standard, that they’re afraid to put too much power into any set. There was a solid period of having a top tier deck emerging, and then being banned, then re-emerging, and being even more banned... I can’t find the quote, but I’m sure I remember Rosewater saying something to the effect of they can’t put fetches into standard because they’d be too powerful, for example.

yawaworhtttt 8y ago

Yeah, they've pretty much buffed creatures and nerfed noncreature spells. Savannah Lion and Kird Ape used to be huge, now even Nimble Mongoose (a 3/3 "can't be targeted" for G) is deemed underpowered by current Legacy standards, and downright unplayable in Vintage. They've also much pushed the Planeswalker type, and you see plenty of them in Legacy/Modern/Standard; apparently it's a deliberate design decision to make sure that the characters featured in their lore see play at competitive tables. On the other hand, older noncreature spells are still king among their kind. Lightning Bolt, Dark Ritual, Brainstorm, Swords to Plowshares and Glimpse of Nature aren't getting dislodged any time soon.

rkho 8y ago

You might appreciate the Battle Box format: https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/stark-reality-battle-box/ https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/stark-reality-battl... > Battle Box creates a scenario where almost every game of Magic is a good game of Magic. Sometimes you will lose, and if the cards had come in a different order you would have won. You still draw a random card every turn. However, if you wanted to play around what your opponent has and increase your chances of winning, you will be able to. Cards are roughly the same power level, and no one ever gets mana screwed or flooded, so the vast majority of games come down to the decisions you make.

mcphage 8y ago

Some years back they rebalanced the game, making creatures much more powerful, but making spells weaker. I used to play red, so Lightning Bolt was the quintessential magic card for me, but now it’s too powerful to reprint. Creatures on the other hand, way more powerful. But I don’t think they have a power creep problem, although admittedly I only read up on the game periodically, not play. I think they did one main rebalancing, and that’s it. It’s not like cards from a few years ago are unplayable.