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Apple started the path to normalizing this, and I believe it's core to being responsible for the entire user experience. Personally, I'm not a fan of this, but

Apple started the path to normalizing this, and I believe it's core to being responsible for the entire user experience. Personally, I'm not a fan of this, but I understand the motives aside from profit. If a Tesla gets poor maintenance by an unskilled shop, when the vehicle crashes and kills the driver, Tesla gets the black eye and has to defend itself in the media and in front of the NHTSA. Tesla's stock takes the hit. When a Mac crashes, it's because Apple's hardware or software has a bug (something in Apple's control). Apple doesn't have an open ecosystem like th.e PC world. When a PC crashes, you also have the hardware manufacturer to blame for faulty hardware. What about OS and other system customizations the manufacturer puts in there? Those coukd crash it too? All the public hears is "My Windows crashed." and Microsoft looks bad. No fault is brought upon the consumer who thought a $220 PC was going to be a quality machine, not does it fall to the non-brand foreign bargain PC manufacturer for building a $220 that's doomed to provide an awful experience. Instead, the world hears that "Windows Sucks." Given this, I appreciate why a company would opt to do the things Tesla has done in order to protect its brand. However, I try to avoid doing business with companies who do this, as I value consumer freedom.

mancerayder 8y ago
All well and good -- solid arguments except when you consider things like: Apple's Mac Pro (the big tower) had upgradeable RAM and video, and the newer versions (the little black shiny pretty cylinder) were soldered on. That's less about lawsuits and support costs -- it's memory for God's sake and everyone else lets the consumer physically upgrade it, even many laptops. It's about going through the cartel to get the upgrade, which is marked up 3X, 4X. Apple is recent -- anyone remember Sun?
- Retric 8y ago
  Playing devils advocate. RAM is the #1 cause if computers crashes largely because people think cheap or overclocked RAM is fine. Windows would have a vastly better reputation if it was always paired up with good hardware.
  - notahacker 8y ago
    I doubt OSX would run slower if I doubled the RAM in my Macbook Air though, even if the RAM I bought wasn't the best.
    - yayana 8y ago
      This can happen if a cache doesn't support more and turns itself off or into some horrible mode.. But the real fight on stable RAM was over ECC, IBM is the only giant that took an actual stand on insisting on quality at a price. Apple realized they could keep the price.
  - simion314 8y ago
    >RAM is the #1 cause if computers crashes Can you source this or is an opinion? I don't have facts by I think drivers are #1 issues for hard crashes.
  - FireBeyond 8y ago
    Most RAM in the world is produced by the same three(?) manufacturers. I'm not sure what Mac allows you to overclock RAM either... No. This is the same Apple who one year ago was charging $1200 for 48GB of memory.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
- pilsetnieks 8y ago
  The trashbin Mac Pro can also be upgraded - RAM, SSD, GPU and even the CPU. The problem is that the SSD and GPU use weird form factors and thus are hard to find and expensive. It's the laptops where everything is soldered on.
  - apercu 8y ago
    Not just. I have a 2015 iMac. It was running out of memory so I went to upgrade it. Nope, soldered in. Ended up buying a new computer. Doesn't make me happy.
greedo 8y ago
How is Apple in control of 3rd party software? That's been as buggy if anything as any part of the OS.
jen20 8y ago
> Apple started the path to normalizing this [citation needed]. As a consumer, I wasn't able to buy detailed service manuals for cars or TVs for long before I couldn't get one from Apple.
- justinclift 8y ago
  Not sure about TVs, but car manuals have been around for ages. This link (not previously known to me) looks to have ones from early and mid last century: http://oldcarmanualproject.com http://oldcarmanualproject.com
simion314 8y ago
This are very bad excuses, Did BMW,Ford or other car manufacturer had issues because people use a car service that is not "official" but is very convenient? Is Tesla planing to open car services in all locations were regular services are or you will have to send the car back to the dealer so they send it back to Tesla and wait 3 weeks like you have to do with Apple. About Apple, -1 Apple sells expensive products and non-Apple PCs and phones come in different price ranges, so in average Apple products will be better quality. - 2 Apple products break too, I have such a laptop and many other people can confirm that they have hardware issues and we also see that until justice is involved the issues are not acknowledged - 3 Apple always had a good image in some demographics and it is not correlated with the fact they are trying to hide the hardware schematics, try to stop third party to repair the products, the good reputation was because of the software and hardware. For the Apple fans that will downvote, also leave some factual reason why I am wrong, something like why do you think the new anti-repair movement is increasing Apple branding or what fact I got wrong.
- FireBeyond 8y ago
  > Is Tesla planing to open car services in all locations were regular services are or you will have to send the car back to the dealer so they send it back to Tesla and wait 3 weeks like you have to do with Apple. If you're really "lucky" it will happen while you're traveling out of state, and Tesla will tow your vehicle to the nearest facility and give you one of their rentals or partnered rentals, some of whom have "no out of state" policies on the replacement vehicle (remember, you're already 'out of state' - how are you planning to get home?).
r00fus 8y ago
> When a Mac crashes, it's because Apple's hardware or software has a bug (something in Apple's control). Apple doesn't have an open ecosystem like th.e PC world. My only consistent hardware error on a Mac was my 2005 iMac (the 42lb one) when I upgraded the RAM and chose the wrong speed/timing. Genius bar told me to replace it with the stock RAM and it worked fine. So yeah, upgradability and easy-maintenance can easily lead to problems even with a reasonably knowledgeable consumer or repair shop.
FireBeyond 8y ago
> and in front of the NHTSA Hardly. A fatality collision is rarely the subject of an NHTSA investigation, and "serviced by unqualified/unlicensed auto repair facility" is one, a big get out of jail card, and two, hands a whole world of liability... to said facility, not Tesla.

mancerayder 8y ago

All well and good -- solid arguments except when you consider things like: Apple's Mac Pro (the big tower) had upgradeable RAM and video, and the newer versions (the little black shiny pretty cylinder) were soldered on. That's less about lawsuits and support costs -- it's memory for God's sake and everyone else lets the consumer physically upgrade it, even many laptops. It's about going through the cartel to get the upgrade, which is marked up 3X, 4X. Apple is recent -- anyone remember Sun?

Retric 8y ago
Playing devils advocate. RAM is the #1 cause if computers crashes largely because people think cheap or overclocked RAM is fine. Windows would have a vastly better reputation if it was always paired up with good hardware.
- notahacker 8y ago
  I doubt OSX would run slower if I doubled the RAM in my Macbook Air though, even if the RAM I bought wasn't the best.
  - yayana 8y ago
    This can happen if a cache doesn't support more and turns itself off or into some horrible mode.. But the real fight on stable RAM was over ECC, IBM is the only giant that took an actual stand on insisting on quality at a price. Apple realized they could keep the price.
- simion314 8y ago
  >RAM is the #1 cause if computers crashes Can you source this or is an opinion? I don't have facts by I think drivers are #1 issues for hard crashes.
- FireBeyond 8y ago
  Most RAM in the world is produced by the same three(?) manufacturers. I'm not sure what Mac allows you to overclock RAM either... No. This is the same Apple who one year ago was charging $1200 for 48GB of memory.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
pilsetnieks 8y ago
The trashbin Mac Pro can also be upgraded - RAM, SSD, GPU and even the CPU. The problem is that the SSD and GPU use weird form factors and thus are hard to find and expensive. It's the laptops where everything is soldered on.
- apercu 8y ago
  Not just. I have a 2015 iMac. It was running out of memory so I went to upgrade it. Nope, soldered in. Ended up buying a new computer. Doesn't make me happy.

greedo 8y ago

How is Apple in control of 3rd party software? That's been as buggy if anything as any part of the OS.

jen20 8y ago

> Apple started the path to normalizing this [citation needed]. As a consumer, I wasn't able to buy detailed service manuals for cars or TVs for long before I couldn't get one from Apple.

justinclift 8y ago
Not sure about TVs, but car manuals have been around for ages. This link (not previously known to me) looks to have ones from early and mid last century: http://oldcarmanualproject.com http://oldcarmanualproject.com

simion314 8y ago

This are very bad excuses, Did BMW,Ford or other car manufacturer had issues because people use a car service that is not "official" but is very convenient? Is Tesla planing to open car services in all locations were regular services are or you will have to send the car back to the dealer so they send it back to Tesla and wait 3 weeks like you have to do with Apple. About Apple, -1 Apple sells expensive products and non-Apple PCs and phones come in different price ranges, so in average Apple products will be better quality. - 2 Apple products break too, I have such a laptop and many other people can confirm that they have hardware issues and we also see that until justice is involved the issues are not acknowledged - 3 Apple always had a good image in some demographics and it is not correlated with the fact they are trying to hide the hardware schematics, try to stop third party to repair the products, the good reputation was because of the software and hardware. For the Apple fans that will downvote, also leave some factual reason why I am wrong, something like why do you think the new anti-repair movement is increasing Apple branding or what fact I got wrong.

FireBeyond 8y ago
> Is Tesla planing to open car services in all locations were regular services are or you will have to send the car back to the dealer so they send it back to Tesla and wait 3 weeks like you have to do with Apple. If you're really "lucky" it will happen while you're traveling out of state, and Tesla will tow your vehicle to the nearest facility and give you one of their rentals or partnered rentals, some of whom have "no out of state" policies on the replacement vehicle (remember, you're already 'out of state' - how are you planning to get home?).

r00fus 8y ago

> When a Mac crashes, it's because Apple's hardware or software has a bug (something in Apple's control). Apple doesn't have an open ecosystem like th.e PC world. My only consistent hardware error on a Mac was my 2005 iMac (the 42lb one) when I upgraded the RAM and chose the wrong speed/timing. Genius bar told me to replace it with the stock RAM and it worked fine. So yeah, upgradability and easy-maintenance can easily lead to problems even with a reasonably knowledgeable consumer or repair shop.

FireBeyond 8y ago

> and in front of the NHTSA Hardly. A fatality collision is rarely the subject of an NHTSA investigation, and "serviced by unqualified/unlicensed auto repair facility" is one, a big get out of jail card, and two, hands a whole world of liability... to said facility, not Tesla.