4 ms·

My point is that this doesn't bode well for Tesla. My biggest complaint with Tesla is that they don't provide service manuals or have an open parts department f

My point is that this doesn't bode well for Tesla. My biggest complaint with Tesla is that they don't provide service manuals or have an open parts department for their vehicles. For comparison, pretty much every other major auto maker will sell you a book telling you how to fix anything on your vehicle, and will sell you the parts and special tools to do so. Not Tesla, and given what we know about Ellison, I very much doubt he will encourage this to happen.

puzzle 8y ago
You also know what this means for relationships between Tesla and Waymo. Let the fireworks begin...
midnitewarrior 8y ago
Apple started the path to normalizing this, and I believe it's core to being responsible for the entire user experience. Personally, I'm not a fan of this, but I understand the motives aside from profit. If a Tesla gets poor maintenance by an unskilled shop, when the vehicle crashes and kills the driver, Tesla gets the black eye and has to defend itself in the media and in front of the NHTSA. Tesla's stock takes the hit. When a Mac crashes, it's because Apple's hardware or software has a bug (something in Apple's control). Apple doesn't have an open ecosystem like th.e PC world. When a PC crashes, you also have the hardware manufacturer to blame for faulty hardware. What about OS and other system customizations the manufacturer puts in there? Those coukd crash it too? All the public hears is "My Windows crashed." and Microsoft looks bad. No fault is brought upon the consumer who thought a $220 PC was going to be a quality machine, not does it fall to the non-brand foreign bargain PC manufacturer for building a $220 that's doomed to provide an awful experience. Instead, the world hears that "Windows Sucks." Given this, I appreciate why a company would opt to do the things Tesla has done in order to protect its brand. However, I try to avoid doing business with companies who do this, as I value consumer freedom.
- mancerayder 8y ago
  All well and good -- solid arguments except when you consider things like: Apple's Mac Pro (the big tower) had upgradeable RAM and video, and the newer versions (the little black shiny pretty cylinder) were soldered on. That's less about lawsuits and support costs -- it's memory for God's sake and everyone else lets the consumer physically upgrade it, even many laptops. It's about going through the cartel to get the upgrade, which is marked up 3X, 4X. Apple is recent -- anyone remember Sun?
  - Retric 8y ago
    Playing devils advocate. RAM is the #1 cause if computers crashes largely because people think cheap or overclocked RAM is fine. Windows would have a vastly better reputation if it was always paired up with good hardware.
    - notahacker 8y ago
      I doubt OSX would run slower if I doubled the RAM in my Macbook Air though, even if the RAM I bought wasn't the best.
      - yayana 8y ago
        This can happen if a cache doesn't support more and turns itself off or into some horrible mode.. But the real fight on stable RAM was over ECC, IBM is the only giant that took an actual stand on insisting on quality at a price. Apple realized they could keep the price.
    - simion314 8y ago
      >RAM is the #1 cause if computers crashes Can you source this or is an opinion? I don't have facts by I think drivers are #1 issues for hard crashes.
    - FireBeyond 8y ago
      Most RAM in the world is produced by the same three(?) manufacturers. I'm not sure what Mac allows you to overclock RAM either... No. This is the same Apple who one year ago was charging $1200 for 48GB of memory.
- greedo 8y ago
  How is Apple in control of 3rd party software? That's been as buggy if anything as any part of the OS.
- jen20 8y ago
  > Apple started the path to normalizing this [citation needed]. As a consumer, I wasn't able to buy detailed service manuals for cars or TVs for long before I couldn't get one from Apple.
  - justinclift 8y ago
    Not sure about TVs, but car manuals have been around for ages. This link (not previously known to me) looks to have ones from early and mid last century: http://oldcarmanualproject.com http://oldcarmanualproject.com
- simion314 8y ago
  This are very bad excuses, Did BMW,Ford or other car manufacturer had issues because people use a car service that is not "official" but is very convenient? Is Tesla planing to open car services in all locations were regular services are or you will have to send the car back to the dealer so they send it back to Tesla and wait 3 weeks like you have to do with Apple. About Apple, -1 Apple sells expensive products and non-Apple PCs and phones come in different price ranges, so in average Apple products will be better quality. - 2 Apple products break too, I have such a laptop and many other people can confirm that they have hardware issues and we also see that until justice is involved the issues are not acknowledged - 3 Apple always had a good image in some demographics and it is not correlated with the fact they are trying to hide the hardware schematics, try to stop third party to repair the products, the good reputation was because of the software and hardware. For the Apple fans that will downvote, also leave some factual reason why I am wrong, something like why do you think the new anti-repair movement is increasing Apple branding or what fact I got wrong.
  - FireBeyond 8y ago
    > Is Tesla planing to open car services in all locations were regular services are or you will have to send the car back to the dealer so they send it back to Tesla and wait 3 weeks like you have to do with Apple. If you're really "lucky" it will happen while you're traveling out of state, and Tesla will tow your vehicle to the nearest facility and give you one of their rentals or partnered rentals, some of whom have "no out of state" policies on the replacement vehicle (remember, you're already 'out of state' - how are you planning to get home?).
- r00fus 8y ago
  > When a Mac crashes, it's because Apple's hardware or software has a bug (something in Apple's control). Apple doesn't have an open ecosystem like th.e PC world. My only consistent hardware error on a Mac was my 2005 iMac (the 42lb one) when I upgraded the RAM and chose the wrong speed/timing. Genius bar told me to replace it with the stock RAM and it worked fine. So yeah, upgradability and easy-maintenance can easily lead to problems even with a reasonably knowledgeable consumer or repair shop.
- FireBeyond 8y ago
  > and in front of the NHTSA Hardly. A fatality collision is rarely the subject of an NHTSA investigation, and "serviced by unqualified/unlicensed auto repair facility" is one, a big get out of jail card, and two, hands a whole world of liability... to said facility, not Tesla.
dominotw 8y ago
> For comparison, pretty much every other major auto maker will sell you a book telling you how to fix anything on your vehicle Wow I didn't know this. I have hard time believing this. Where can I find this for my subaru 2019.
- tsomctl 8y ago
  Really, modern vehicles require a subscription to a website. Hypothetically, you could pay for the 2 day access and scrape the site for your vehicle. For older vehicles, you can normally find the fsm/workshop manual with some creative googling.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - dominotw 8y ago
    ok found it. https://techinfo.subaru.com https://techinfo.subaru.com I had no idea this existed. thanks.
    - justinclift 8y ago
      > This site is optimized for Internet Explorer; we highly recommend using Internet Explorer version 11 or above for the best experience. Ugh.
- drcoopster 8y ago
  Your dealer.
  - dominotw 8y ago
    Nope. Just called my subaru dealer, they don't have any additional manuals for sale that aren't on subaru website. I did find this website though https://techinfo.subaru.com/ https://techinfo.subaru.com/
- barrkel 8y ago
mbesto 8y ago
> Not Tesla, and given what we know about Ellison, I very much doubt he will encourage this to happen. No, but he might put some board level pressure to get more rigorous about profitability. I know that's a dirty word around here, but Tesla is not exactly well known for it's cashflow prowess. Those are the types of things board members do...not figure out whether service manuals come with the product.
- erikpukinskis 8y ago
  What would you expect a normal timeframe for an automobile startup to exhibit cash flow prowess?
  - mbesto 8y ago
    I expect an automobile company that is no longer considered a startup and is publicly traded to exhibit either (1) positive cash flow or (2) a clear path to positive cash flow.
thorin 8y ago
Not sure what you mean here, Oracle Database at least has great documentation although there is rather a lot of it: https://docs.oracle.com/database/121/index.htm https://docs.oracle.com/database/121/index.htm
martythemaniak 8y ago
They do in fact have it: https://epc.teslamotors.com/#/catalogs https://epc.teslamotors.com/#/catalogs
- FireBeyond 8y ago
  They do. And every single item on there down to bolts says "Contact Tesla" who, multiple people have confirmed, will say "Sorry, not available to you". It's meeting the letter of the law, not the spirit. Just like how in those few states where access to service manuals is legislated, Tesla makes you 1) make an appointment, 2) pay a fee, 3) show up to a designated location, 4) not be allowed to take copies, or photographs, and only allow your own hand written notes (no computers allowed), and 5) sets a time limit.
dpkonofa 8y ago
While I think I would agree with you normally, I don't think it makes sense to offer service manuals for Teslas. There's no way that the goodwill they would gain from doing so would outweigh any of the negative consequences when someone fucks up a personal repair on their Tesla and the company gets a bad rap for it. The number of people that would even bother self-repair for a Tesla is likely so infinitesimally small that it makes it more costly for Tesla to offer and support those services. Additionally, I can't imagine that a service manual would be valid for that long considering that a lot of the service on a Tesla is mostly on the software side. They'd have to offer a hardware manual for the extremely limited amount of hardware and then a separate software website/app/portal to handle the software side. You'd likely be paying a subscription and they'd need to separate off whatever platform they're currently using at the service centers. Again, doesn't seem very cost-effective for the tiny base that would benefit from it. As for the parts, there's a parts catalog online: https://epc.teslamotors.com/#/catalogs https://epc.teslamotors.com/#/catalogs
almost_usual 8y ago
"You have to go to a Tesla Service Center to get your wheels aligned. It costs 10x more than an alignment somewhere else but it's for your own safety. If you go to another shop to get an alignment our software will detect it and void your warranty. Welcome to the future!"
- greglindahl 8y ago
  This example is a bad one. In fact, when Tesla's repair system is busy, they'll send you to a standard tire store.
  - almost_usual 8y ago
    >This example is a bad one. In fact, when Tesla's repair system is busy, they'll send you to a standard tire store. We're not talking about past Tesla. We're talking about Tesla that needs to improve cash flow with Larry Ellison on the board. Do you really think this is hard to imagine?
illumin8 8y ago
Actually, afaik, every auto maker used to be like this, and the only reason they provide those manuals is because they are required to by law in some states: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Vehicle_Owners%27_Right_to_Repair_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Vehicle_Owners%27_Right_... This is not a new problem, and consumers have been fighting to get quality documentation from auto manufacturers for decades now, but manufacturers don't want to give it voluntarily because it cuts off their dealerships from recurring repair revenue, where they make most of their profits. I think the only reason Tesla doesn't comply yet is because they probably don't have any physical presence in Massachusetts, which passed the law in 2013. We should all be ashamed that our government is so bought and paid for by the auto manufacturers and dealers that this information isn't mandatory to be made available online.

puzzle 8y ago

You also know what this means for relationships between Tesla and Waymo. Let the fireworks begin...

midnitewarrior 8y ago

Apple started the path to normalizing this, and I believe it's core to being responsible for the entire user experience. Personally, I'm not a fan of this, but I understand the motives aside from profit. If a Tesla gets poor maintenance by an unskilled shop, when the vehicle crashes and kills the driver, Tesla gets the black eye and has to defend itself in the media and in front of the NHTSA. Tesla's stock takes the hit. When a Mac crashes, it's because Apple's hardware or software has a bug (something in Apple's control). Apple doesn't have an open ecosystem like th.e PC world. When a PC crashes, you also have the hardware manufacturer to blame for faulty hardware. What about OS and other system customizations the manufacturer puts in there? Those coukd crash it too? All the public hears is "My Windows crashed." and Microsoft looks bad. No fault is brought upon the consumer who thought a $220 PC was going to be a quality machine, not does it fall to the non-brand foreign bargain PC manufacturer for building a $220 that's doomed to provide an awful experience. Instead, the world hears that "Windows Sucks." Given this, I appreciate why a company would opt to do the things Tesla has done in order to protect its brand. However, I try to avoid doing business with companies who do this, as I value consumer freedom.

mancerayder 8y ago
All well and good -- solid arguments except when you consider things like: Apple's Mac Pro (the big tower) had upgradeable RAM and video, and the newer versions (the little black shiny pretty cylinder) were soldered on. That's less about lawsuits and support costs -- it's memory for God's sake and everyone else lets the consumer physically upgrade it, even many laptops. It's about going through the cartel to get the upgrade, which is marked up 3X, 4X. Apple is recent -- anyone remember Sun?
- Retric 8y ago
  Playing devils advocate. RAM is the #1 cause if computers crashes largely because people think cheap or overclocked RAM is fine. Windows would have a vastly better reputation if it was always paired up with good hardware.
  - notahacker 8y ago
    I doubt OSX would run slower if I doubled the RAM in my Macbook Air though, even if the RAM I bought wasn't the best.
    - yayana 8y ago
      This can happen if a cache doesn't support more and turns itself off or into some horrible mode.. But the real fight on stable RAM was over ECC, IBM is the only giant that took an actual stand on insisting on quality at a price. Apple realized they could keep the price.
  - simion314 8y ago
    >RAM is the #1 cause if computers crashes Can you source this or is an opinion? I don't have facts by I think drivers are #1 issues for hard crashes.
  - FireBeyond 8y ago
    Most RAM in the world is produced by the same three(?) manufacturers. I'm not sure what Mac allows you to overclock RAM either... No. This is the same Apple who one year ago was charging $1200 for 48GB of memory.
greedo 8y ago
How is Apple in control of 3rd party software? That's been as buggy if anything as any part of the OS.
jen20 8y ago
> Apple started the path to normalizing this [citation needed]. As a consumer, I wasn't able to buy detailed service manuals for cars or TVs for long before I couldn't get one from Apple.
- justinclift 8y ago
  Not sure about TVs, but car manuals have been around for ages. This link (not previously known to me) looks to have ones from early and mid last century: http://oldcarmanualproject.com http://oldcarmanualproject.com
simion314 8y ago
This are very bad excuses, Did BMW,Ford or other car manufacturer had issues because people use a car service that is not "official" but is very convenient? Is Tesla planing to open car services in all locations were regular services are or you will have to send the car back to the dealer so they send it back to Tesla and wait 3 weeks like you have to do with Apple. About Apple, -1 Apple sells expensive products and non-Apple PCs and phones come in different price ranges, so in average Apple products will be better quality. - 2 Apple products break too, I have such a laptop and many other people can confirm that they have hardware issues and we also see that until justice is involved the issues are not acknowledged - 3 Apple always had a good image in some demographics and it is not correlated with the fact they are trying to hide the hardware schematics, try to stop third party to repair the products, the good reputation was because of the software and hardware. For the Apple fans that will downvote, also leave some factual reason why I am wrong, something like why do you think the new anti-repair movement is increasing Apple branding or what fact I got wrong.
- FireBeyond 8y ago
  > Is Tesla planing to open car services in all locations were regular services are or you will have to send the car back to the dealer so they send it back to Tesla and wait 3 weeks like you have to do with Apple. If you're really "lucky" it will happen while you're traveling out of state, and Tesla will tow your vehicle to the nearest facility and give you one of their rentals or partnered rentals, some of whom have "no out of state" policies on the replacement vehicle (remember, you're already 'out of state' - how are you planning to get home?).
r00fus 8y ago
> When a Mac crashes, it's because Apple's hardware or software has a bug (something in Apple's control). Apple doesn't have an open ecosystem like th.e PC world. My only consistent hardware error on a Mac was my 2005 iMac (the 42lb one) when I upgraded the RAM and chose the wrong speed/timing. Genius bar told me to replace it with the stock RAM and it worked fine. So yeah, upgradability and easy-maintenance can easily lead to problems even with a reasonably knowledgeable consumer or repair shop.
FireBeyond 8y ago
> and in front of the NHTSA Hardly. A fatality collision is rarely the subject of an NHTSA investigation, and "serviced by unqualified/unlicensed auto repair facility" is one, a big get out of jail card, and two, hands a whole world of liability... to said facility, not Tesla.

dominotw 8y ago

> For comparison, pretty much every other major auto maker will sell you a book telling you how to fix anything on your vehicle Wow I didn't know this. I have hard time believing this. Where can I find this for my subaru 2019.

tsomctl 8y ago
Really, modern vehicles require a subscription to a website. Hypothetically, you could pay for the 2 day access and scrape the site for your vehicle. For older vehicles, you can normally find the fsm/workshop manual with some creative googling.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- dominotw 8y ago
  ok found it. https://techinfo.subaru.com https://techinfo.subaru.com I had no idea this existed. thanks.
  - justinclift 8y ago
    > This site is optimized for Internet Explorer; we highly recommend using Internet Explorer version 11 or above for the best experience. Ugh.
drcoopster 8y ago
Your dealer.
- dominotw 8y ago
  Nope. Just called my subaru dealer, they don't have any additional manuals for sale that aren't on subaru website. I did find this website though https://techinfo.subaru.com/ https://techinfo.subaru.com/
barrkel 8y ago

mbesto 8y ago

> Not Tesla, and given what we know about Ellison, I very much doubt he will encourage this to happen. No, but he might put some board level pressure to get more rigorous about profitability. I know that's a dirty word around here, but Tesla is not exactly well known for it's cashflow prowess. Those are the types of things board members do...not figure out whether service manuals come with the product.

erikpukinskis 8y ago
What would you expect a normal timeframe for an automobile startup to exhibit cash flow prowess?
- mbesto 8y ago
  I expect an automobile company that is no longer considered a startup and is publicly traded to exhibit either (1) positive cash flow or (2) a clear path to positive cash flow.

thorin 8y ago

Not sure what you mean here, Oracle Database at least has great documentation although there is rather a lot of it: https://docs.oracle.com/database/121/index.htm https://docs.oracle.com/database/121/index.htm

martythemaniak 8y ago

They do in fact have it: https://epc.teslamotors.com/#/catalogs https://epc.teslamotors.com/#/catalogs

FireBeyond 8y ago
They do. And every single item on there down to bolts says "Contact Tesla" who, multiple people have confirmed, will say "Sorry, not available to you". It's meeting the letter of the law, not the spirit. Just like how in those few states where access to service manuals is legislated, Tesla makes you 1) make an appointment, 2) pay a fee, 3) show up to a designated location, 4) not be allowed to take copies, or photographs, and only allow your own hand written notes (no computers allowed), and 5) sets a time limit.

dpkonofa 8y ago

While I think I would agree with you normally, I don't think it makes sense to offer service manuals for Teslas. There's no way that the goodwill they would gain from doing so would outweigh any of the negative consequences when someone fucks up a personal repair on their Tesla and the company gets a bad rap for it. The number of people that would even bother self-repair for a Tesla is likely so infinitesimally small that it makes it more costly for Tesla to offer and support those services. Additionally, I can't imagine that a service manual would be valid for that long considering that a lot of the service on a Tesla is mostly on the software side. They'd have to offer a hardware manual for the extremely limited amount of hardware and then a separate software website/app/portal to handle the software side. You'd likely be paying a subscription and they'd need to separate off whatever platform they're currently using at the service centers. Again, doesn't seem very cost-effective for the tiny base that would benefit from it. As for the parts, there's a parts catalog online: https://epc.teslamotors.com/#/catalogs https://epc.teslamotors.com/#/catalogs

almost_usual 8y ago

"You have to go to a Tesla Service Center to get your wheels aligned. It costs 10x more than an alignment somewhere else but it's for your own safety. If you go to another shop to get an alignment our software will detect it and void your warranty. Welcome to the future!"

greglindahl 8y ago
This example is a bad one. In fact, when Tesla's repair system is busy, they'll send you to a standard tire store.
- almost_usual 8y ago
  >This example is a bad one. In fact, when Tesla's repair system is busy, they'll send you to a standard tire store. We're not talking about past Tesla. We're talking about Tesla that needs to improve cash flow with Larry Ellison on the board. Do you really think this is hard to imagine?

illumin8 8y ago

Actually, afaik, every auto maker used to be like this, and the only reason they provide those manuals is because they are required to by law in some states: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Vehicle_Owners%27_Right_to_Repair_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Vehicle_Owners%27_Right_... This is not a new problem, and consumers have been fighting to get quality documentation from auto manufacturers for decades now, but manufacturers don't want to give it voluntarily because it cuts off their dealerships from recurring repair revenue, where they make most of their profits. I think the only reason Tesla doesn't comply yet is because they probably don't have any physical presence in Massachusetts, which passed the law in 2013. We should all be ashamed that our government is so bought and paid for by the auto manufacturers and dealers that this information isn't mandatory to be made available online.