6 ms·

Yes, Oracle is bad. No, I don't love or even like them. But quoting Bryan's dramatic speeches every time Oracle or Ellison are mentioned is adding next to noth

Yes, Oracle is bad. No, I don't love or even like them. But quoting Bryan's dramatic speeches every time Oracle or Ellison are mentioned is adding next to nothing to the discussion at this point. It's a great way to incite anger though.

tsomctl 8y ago
My point is that this doesn't bode well for Tesla. My biggest complaint with Tesla is that they don't provide service manuals or have an open parts department for their vehicles. For comparison, pretty much every other major auto maker will sell you a book telling you how to fix anything on your vehicle, and will sell you the parts and special tools to do so. Not Tesla, and given what we know about Ellison, I very much doubt he will encourage this to happen.
- puzzle 8y ago
  You also know what this means for relationships between Tesla and Waymo. Let the fireworks begin...
- midnitewarrior 8y ago
  Apple started the path to normalizing this, and I believe it's core to being responsible for the entire user experience. Personally, I'm not a fan of this, but I understand the motives aside from profit. If a Tesla gets poor maintenance by an unskilled shop, when the vehicle crashes and kills the driver, Tesla gets the black eye and has to defend itself in the media and in front of the NHTSA. Tesla's stock takes the hit. When a Mac crashes, it's because Apple's hardware or software has a bug (something in Apple's control). Apple doesn't have an open ecosystem like th.e PC world. When a PC crashes, you also have the hardware manufacturer to blame for faulty hardware. What about OS and other system customizations the manufacturer puts in there? Those coukd crash it too? All the public hears is "My Windows crashed." and Microsoft looks bad. No fault is brought upon the consumer who thought a $220 PC was going to be a quality machine, not does it fall to the non-brand foreign bargain PC manufacturer for building a $220 that's doomed to provide an awful experience. Instead, the world hears that "Windows Sucks." Given this, I appreciate why a company would opt to do the things Tesla has done in order to protect its brand. However, I try to avoid doing business with companies who do this, as I value consumer freedom.
  - mancerayder 8y ago
    All well and good -- solid arguments except when you consider things like: Apple's Mac Pro (the big tower) had upgradeable RAM and video, and the newer versions (the little black shiny pretty cylinder) were soldered on. That's less about lawsuits and support costs -- it's memory for God's sake and everyone else lets the consumer physically upgrade it, even many laptops. It's about going through the cartel to get the upgrade, which is marked up 3X, 4X. Apple is recent -- anyone remember Sun?
    - Retric 8y ago
      Playing devils advocate. RAM is the #1 cause if computers crashes largely because people think cheap or overclocked RAM is fine. Windows would have a vastly better reputation if it was always paired up with good hardware.
      - notahacker 8y ago
        I doubt OSX would run slower if I doubled the RAM in my Macbook Air though, even if the RAM I bought wasn't the best.
        yayana 8y ago
        This can happen if a cache doesn't support more and turns itself off or into some horrible mode.. But the real fight on stable RAM was over ECC, IBM is the only giant that took an actual stand on insisting on quality at a price. Apple realized they could keep the price.
      - simion314 8y ago
        >RAM is the #1 cause if computers crashes Can you source this or is an opinion? I don't have facts by I think drivers are #1 issues for hard crashes.
      - FireBeyond 8y ago
        Most RAM in the world is produced by the same three(?) manufacturers. I'm not sure what Mac allows you to overclock RAM either... No. This is the same Apple who one year ago was charging $1200 for 48GB of memory.
- dominotw 8y ago
  > For comparison, pretty much every other major auto maker will sell you a book telling you how to fix anything on your vehicle Wow I didn't know this. I have hard time believing this. Where can I find this for my subaru 2019.
  - tsomctl 8y ago
    Really, modern vehicles require a subscription to a website. Hypothetically, you could pay for the 2 day access and scrape the site for your vehicle. For older vehicles, you can normally find the fsm/workshop manual with some creative googling.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - dominotw 8y ago
      ok found it. https://techinfo.subaru.com https://techinfo.subaru.com I had no idea this existed. thanks.
      - justinclift 8y ago
        > This site is optimized for Internet Explorer; we highly recommend using Internet Explorer version 11 or above for the best experience. Ugh.
  - drcoopster 8y ago
    Your dealer.
    - dominotw 8y ago
      Nope. Just called my subaru dealer, they don't have any additional manuals for sale that aren't on subaru website. I did find this website though https://techinfo.subaru.com/ https://techinfo.subaru.com/
  - barrkel 8y ago
- mbesto 8y ago
  > Not Tesla, and given what we know about Ellison, I very much doubt he will encourage this to happen. No, but he might put some board level pressure to get more rigorous about profitability. I know that's a dirty word around here, but Tesla is not exactly well known for it's cashflow prowess. Those are the types of things board members do...not figure out whether service manuals come with the product.
  - erikpukinskis 8y ago
    What would you expect a normal timeframe for an automobile startup to exhibit cash flow prowess?
    - mbesto 8y ago
      I expect an automobile company that is no longer considered a startup and is publicly traded to exhibit either (1) positive cash flow or (2) a clear path to positive cash flow.
- thorin 8y ago
  Not sure what you mean here, Oracle Database at least has great documentation although there is rather a lot of it: https://docs.oracle.com/database/121/index.htm https://docs.oracle.com/database/121/index.htm
- martythemaniak 8y ago
  They do in fact have it: https://epc.teslamotors.com/#/catalogs https://epc.teslamotors.com/#/catalogs
  - FireBeyond 8y ago
    They do. And every single item on there down to bolts says "Contact Tesla" who, multiple people have confirmed, will say "Sorry, not available to you". It's meeting the letter of the law, not the spirit. Just like how in those few states where access to service manuals is legislated, Tesla makes you 1) make an appointment, 2) pay a fee, 3) show up to a designated location, 4) not be allowed to take copies, or photographs, and only allow your own hand written notes (no computers allowed), and 5) sets a time limit.
- dpkonofa 8y ago
  While I think I would agree with you normally, I don't think it makes sense to offer service manuals for Teslas. There's no way that the goodwill they would gain from doing so would outweigh any of the negative consequences when someone fucks up a personal repair on their Tesla and the company gets a bad rap for it. The number of people that would even bother self-repair for a Tesla is likely so infinitesimally small that it makes it more costly for Tesla to offer and support those services. Additionally, I can't imagine that a service manual would be valid for that long considering that a lot of the service on a Tesla is mostly on the software side. They'd have to offer a hardware manual for the extremely limited amount of hardware and then a separate software website/app/portal to handle the software side. You'd likely be paying a subscription and they'd need to separate off whatever platform they're currently using at the service centers. Again, doesn't seem very cost-effective for the tiny base that would benefit from it. As for the parts, there's a parts catalog online: https://epc.teslamotors.com/#/catalogs https://epc.teslamotors.com/#/catalogs
- almost_usual 8y ago
  "You have to go to a Tesla Service Center to get your wheels aligned. It costs 10x more than an alignment somewhere else but it's for your own safety. If you go to another shop to get an alignment our software will detect it and void your warranty. Welcome to the future!"
  - greglindahl 8y ago
    This example is a bad one. In fact, when Tesla's repair system is busy, they'll send you to a standard tire store.
    - almost_usual 8y ago
      >This example is a bad one. In fact, when Tesla's repair system is busy, they'll send you to a standard tire store. We're not talking about past Tesla. We're talking about Tesla that needs to improve cash flow with Larry Ellison on the board. Do you really think this is hard to imagine?
- illumin8 8y ago
  Actually, afaik, every auto maker used to be like this, and the only reason they provide those manuals is because they are required to by law in some states: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Vehicle_Owners%27_Right_to_Repair_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Vehicle_Owners%27_Right_... This is not a new problem, and consumers have been fighting to get quality documentation from auto manufacturers for decades now, but manufacturers don't want to give it voluntarily because it cuts off their dealerships from recurring repair revenue, where they make most of their profits. I think the only reason Tesla doesn't comply yet is because they probably don't have any physical presence in Massachusetts, which passed the law in 2013. We should all be ashamed that our government is so bought and paid for by the auto manufacturers and dealers that this information isn't mandatory to be made available online.
warent 8y ago
This is actually the first I've heard the speech, so to me personally it added value at least.
- sanderjd 8y ago
  Yep, I've stopped being annoyed by seemingly repetitive comments. On any given topic there is always both a gtirloni who has heard it a million times and a warent who never has.
  - nindalf 8y ago
    Oh I love repetitive comments. Top comment on every article about an advertising company -> "remember! you're not the customer! you're the product!" followed by a bunch of folks praising this profound insight.
    - Fnoord 8y ago
      There's herds upon herds who do not realise that "profound insight" because of a lack of transparency. So when truth is being unleashed about e.g. Facebook, it allows for people to be waken up. (FWIW, it has worked for me, though yes it was annoying.)
    - sanderjd 8y ago
      This is a great example of what I'm talking about. I'm pretty certain that concept put in those words was new to me in some HN comment at some point, and I'm even more certain it was already tiresome to tons of people by that time. This happens all the time.
philipov 8y ago
https://xkcd.com/1053/ https://xkcd.com/1053/
daveFNbuck 8y ago
I clicked through to these comments because I didn't know who Larry Ellison was and wanted to get an idea of what the HN community thinks of this move. Seeing this as the top comment gives me a pretty good answer about that.
cbm-vic-20 8y ago
And it gives Tesla fans a scapegoat if the company does anything stupid in the future.

tsomctl 8y ago

My point is that this doesn't bode well for Tesla. My biggest complaint with Tesla is that they don't provide service manuals or have an open parts department for their vehicles. For comparison, pretty much every other major auto maker will sell you a book telling you how to fix anything on your vehicle, and will sell you the parts and special tools to do so. Not Tesla, and given what we know about Ellison, I very much doubt he will encourage this to happen.

puzzle 8y ago
You also know what this means for relationships between Tesla and Waymo. Let the fireworks begin...
midnitewarrior 8y ago
Apple started the path to normalizing this, and I believe it's core to being responsible for the entire user experience. Personally, I'm not a fan of this, but I understand the motives aside from profit. If a Tesla gets poor maintenance by an unskilled shop, when the vehicle crashes and kills the driver, Tesla gets the black eye and has to defend itself in the media and in front of the NHTSA. Tesla's stock takes the hit. When a Mac crashes, it's because Apple's hardware or software has a bug (something in Apple's control). Apple doesn't have an open ecosystem like th.e PC world. When a PC crashes, you also have the hardware manufacturer to blame for faulty hardware. What about OS and other system customizations the manufacturer puts in there? Those coukd crash it too? All the public hears is "My Windows crashed." and Microsoft looks bad. No fault is brought upon the consumer who thought a $220 PC was going to be a quality machine, not does it fall to the non-brand foreign bargain PC manufacturer for building a $220 that's doomed to provide an awful experience. Instead, the world hears that "Windows Sucks." Given this, I appreciate why a company would opt to do the things Tesla has done in order to protect its brand. However, I try to avoid doing business with companies who do this, as I value consumer freedom.
- mancerayder 8y ago
  All well and good -- solid arguments except when you consider things like: Apple's Mac Pro (the big tower) had upgradeable RAM and video, and the newer versions (the little black shiny pretty cylinder) were soldered on. That's less about lawsuits and support costs -- it's memory for God's sake and everyone else lets the consumer physically upgrade it, even many laptops. It's about going through the cartel to get the upgrade, which is marked up 3X, 4X. Apple is recent -- anyone remember Sun?
  - Retric 8y ago
    Playing devils advocate. RAM is the #1 cause if computers crashes largely because people think cheap or overclocked RAM is fine. Windows would have a vastly better reputation if it was always paired up with good hardware.
    - notahacker 8y ago
      I doubt OSX would run slower if I doubled the RAM in my Macbook Air though, even if the RAM I bought wasn't the best.
      - yayana 8y ago
        This can happen if a cache doesn't support more and turns itself off or into some horrible mode.. But the real fight on stable RAM was over ECC, IBM is the only giant that took an actual stand on insisting on quality at a price. Apple realized they could keep the price.
    - simion314 8y ago
      >RAM is the #1 cause if computers crashes Can you source this or is an opinion? I don't have facts by I think drivers are #1 issues for hard crashes.
    - FireBeyond 8y ago
      Most RAM in the world is produced by the same three(?) manufacturers. I'm not sure what Mac allows you to overclock RAM either... No. This is the same Apple who one year ago was charging $1200 for 48GB of memory.
dominotw 8y ago
> For comparison, pretty much every other major auto maker will sell you a book telling you how to fix anything on your vehicle Wow I didn't know this. I have hard time believing this. Where can I find this for my subaru 2019.
- tsomctl 8y ago
  Really, modern vehicles require a subscription to a website. Hypothetically, you could pay for the 2 day access and scrape the site for your vehicle. For older vehicles, you can normally find the fsm/workshop manual with some creative googling.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - dominotw 8y ago
    ok found it. https://techinfo.subaru.com https://techinfo.subaru.com I had no idea this existed. thanks.
    - justinclift 8y ago
      > This site is optimized for Internet Explorer; we highly recommend using Internet Explorer version 11 or above for the best experience. Ugh.
- drcoopster 8y ago
  Your dealer.
  - dominotw 8y ago
    Nope. Just called my subaru dealer, they don't have any additional manuals for sale that aren't on subaru website. I did find this website though https://techinfo.subaru.com/ https://techinfo.subaru.com/
- barrkel 8y ago
mbesto 8y ago
> Not Tesla, and given what we know about Ellison, I very much doubt he will encourage this to happen. No, but he might put some board level pressure to get more rigorous about profitability. I know that's a dirty word around here, but Tesla is not exactly well known for it's cashflow prowess. Those are the types of things board members do...not figure out whether service manuals come with the product.
- erikpukinskis 8y ago
  What would you expect a normal timeframe for an automobile startup to exhibit cash flow prowess?
  - mbesto 8y ago
    I expect an automobile company that is no longer considered a startup and is publicly traded to exhibit either (1) positive cash flow or (2) a clear path to positive cash flow.
thorin 8y ago
Not sure what you mean here, Oracle Database at least has great documentation although there is rather a lot of it: https://docs.oracle.com/database/121/index.htm https://docs.oracle.com/database/121/index.htm
martythemaniak 8y ago
They do in fact have it: https://epc.teslamotors.com/#/catalogs https://epc.teslamotors.com/#/catalogs
- FireBeyond 8y ago
  They do. And every single item on there down to bolts says "Contact Tesla" who, multiple people have confirmed, will say "Sorry, not available to you". It's meeting the letter of the law, not the spirit. Just like how in those few states where access to service manuals is legislated, Tesla makes you 1) make an appointment, 2) pay a fee, 3) show up to a designated location, 4) not be allowed to take copies, or photographs, and only allow your own hand written notes (no computers allowed), and 5) sets a time limit.
dpkonofa 8y ago
While I think I would agree with you normally, I don't think it makes sense to offer service manuals for Teslas. There's no way that the goodwill they would gain from doing so would outweigh any of the negative consequences when someone fucks up a personal repair on their Tesla and the company gets a bad rap for it. The number of people that would even bother self-repair for a Tesla is likely so infinitesimally small that it makes it more costly for Tesla to offer and support those services. Additionally, I can't imagine that a service manual would be valid for that long considering that a lot of the service on a Tesla is mostly on the software side. They'd have to offer a hardware manual for the extremely limited amount of hardware and then a separate software website/app/portal to handle the software side. You'd likely be paying a subscription and they'd need to separate off whatever platform they're currently using at the service centers. Again, doesn't seem very cost-effective for the tiny base that would benefit from it. As for the parts, there's a parts catalog online: https://epc.teslamotors.com/#/catalogs https://epc.teslamotors.com/#/catalogs
almost_usual 8y ago
"You have to go to a Tesla Service Center to get your wheels aligned. It costs 10x more than an alignment somewhere else but it's for your own safety. If you go to another shop to get an alignment our software will detect it and void your warranty. Welcome to the future!"
- greglindahl 8y ago
  This example is a bad one. In fact, when Tesla's repair system is busy, they'll send you to a standard tire store.
  - almost_usual 8y ago
    >This example is a bad one. In fact, when Tesla's repair system is busy, they'll send you to a standard tire store. We're not talking about past Tesla. We're talking about Tesla that needs to improve cash flow with Larry Ellison on the board. Do you really think this is hard to imagine?
illumin8 8y ago
Actually, afaik, every auto maker used to be like this, and the only reason they provide those manuals is because they are required to by law in some states: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Vehicle_Owners%27_Right_to_Repair_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_Vehicle_Owners%27_Right_... This is not a new problem, and consumers have been fighting to get quality documentation from auto manufacturers for decades now, but manufacturers don't want to give it voluntarily because it cuts off their dealerships from recurring repair revenue, where they make most of their profits. I think the only reason Tesla doesn't comply yet is because they probably don't have any physical presence in Massachusetts, which passed the law in 2013. We should all be ashamed that our government is so bought and paid for by the auto manufacturers and dealers that this information isn't mandatory to be made available online.

warent 8y ago

This is actually the first I've heard the speech, so to me personally it added value at least.

sanderjd 8y ago
Yep, I've stopped being annoyed by seemingly repetitive comments. On any given topic there is always both a gtirloni who has heard it a million times and a warent who never has.
- nindalf 8y ago
  Oh I love repetitive comments. Top comment on every article about an advertising company -> "remember! you're not the customer! you're the product!" followed by a bunch of folks praising this profound insight.
  - Fnoord 8y ago
    There's herds upon herds who do not realise that "profound insight" because of a lack of transparency. So when truth is being unleashed about e.g. Facebook, it allows for people to be waken up. (FWIW, it has worked for me, though yes it was annoying.)
  - sanderjd 8y ago
    This is a great example of what I'm talking about. I'm pretty certain that concept put in those words was new to me in some HN comment at some point, and I'm even more certain it was already tiresome to tons of people by that time. This happens all the time.

philipov 8y ago

https://xkcd.com/1053/ https://xkcd.com/1053/

daveFNbuck 8y ago

I clicked through to these comments because I didn't know who Larry Ellison was and wanted to get an idea of what the HN community thinks of this move. Seeing this as the top comment gives me a pretty good answer about that.

cbm-vic-20 8y ago

And it gives Tesla fans a scapegoat if the company does anything stupid in the future.