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This is fascinating. What do you think possible causes for that might be? Is this an America/Bay Area thing or do you suspect it to be more widespread? Would be

This is fascinating. What do you think possible causes for that might be? Is this an America/Bay Area thing or do you suspect it to be more widespread? Would be interested in other people's take on this also.

lsc 8y ago
So my impression is largely a bay area/silicon valley impression, every time I try to work elsewhere, people start asking for degrees, which I don't have, and they also mention that they pay dramatically less. Or, at least, that is my experience, with the jobs I have been offered. My perception is that salaries for direct-hire software engineers at top-tier companies have gone way up in the last ten years or so. My impression is that contractor wages are... keeping up with inflation. Also note, my perception is that contractor interviews have not gotten much more difficult at all, while direct hire interviews have practically become contests of endurance; like you are expected to spend like 5x as much time on a direct hire interview than, say, 10 or 15 years ago, while you can do a contract interview over a long lunch. Companies also seem to be okay paying Engineers very significant sales-style performance bonuses (in fact, this is where almost all of that increase in pay has come from) and this really helps them keep the gamblers; the people like me who jump every few years 'cause someone offered 20% more. (I mean, the bonus system is another system you need to learn to game, but it's not harder than the interview system.) My speculation (and I'm totally unqualified to speculate on sociological trends, but you asked.) is that something has changed, and the cultural prestige of the Engineer has gone way up, and that this has changed management's willingness to spend directly on Engineer compensation.
- Aloha 8y ago
  My last contract job, I was hired sight unseen, with only a cursory technical interview, that mostly established I could breathe.
  - halfastack 8y ago
    That was my experience as well. Needless to say, I was woefully unprepared for the job, but that also meant I have learnt a ton of interesting things.
- WalterBright 8y ago
  A contractor can be let go on a moment's notice, so there is much less risk of a bad hire than a direct. So no need to expend the effort on an interview.
- xfitm3 8y ago
  What do you do where a degree is critical? I've never even been asked about my education in over 20 years.
  - lsc 8y ago
    >What do you do where a degree is critical? I've never even been asked about my education in over 20 years. I am a "linux systems administrator and programmer" in silicon valley, me too. I mean, I'm sure that my lack of a degree gets my resume binned some places, but almost nobody mentions it, and there are plenty of jobs where they clearly don't care; I don't have trouble finding work. My experience is that if I try to get a job outside of silicon valley (and especially if I try to get a job outside the USA) my lack of credentials becomes a big issue. Part of this is cultural, I think, though a lot of it has to do with work visas. As a US citizen, I can vacation most places without too much trouble, but I still need to jump through hoops if I want to work elsewhere, and if I want to get a 'skilled worker' visa, they usually expect a degree.
- 0xADEADBEE 8y ago
  Thanks for the insight. I've experienced British, Australian and New Zealand contract markets and contracting is far and away the only way to get even close to Bay Area salary levels so I'll be watching this trend closely. I really appreciate you commenting; thank you.
usrusr 8y ago
If it's mostly America/Bay Area I would propose the following explanation: Conventional employers/clients (e.g. your friendly diesel manufacturer) spend money on developers when they have a problem they want solved, they love expensive freelancers: if they could they would fly in a squad of experts, get a solution for a single lump sum payment and then hand it over for maintenance to that underpaid slob they keep in the basement. Overfunded startups as well absurdly profitable SV success stories are a very different story. Building a talent pool is a core investment for them. In many cases they would rather have one good hire than two good ones and two bad because their immediate needs are already met and low performing hires are avoided not so much because of another head on the payroll, but because talent dilution is impossible to undo. They are not interested in adding quantity, but building quality teams is just the way they spend their money. Offers will be either high or nonexistent, and freelancers not welcome.
- tracker1 8y ago
  Exactly this... to your first point, second tier cities in terms of software development jobs (Phoenix, Austin, Atlanta, etc) have a lot to offer. There's enough contract work that you can always find something within a couple weeks, and pay is generally competitive to salaried positions. There's also quite a bit of FT work, but more of that will be with more stable tech. YMMV, but the quality of life, at least for me in Phoenix feels significantly better. I may not be making a quarter million or more a year as I might in SV, but I also don't have nearly the level of stress in my life.
- 0xADEADBEE 8y ago
  An interesting point - I hadn't at all considered the trend of slowly growing an engineering team. I'd bet you're on the money with this.

lsc 8y ago

So my impression is largely a bay area/silicon valley impression, every time I try to work elsewhere, people start asking for degrees, which I don't have, and they also mention that they pay dramatically less. Or, at least, that is my experience, with the jobs I have been offered. My perception is that salaries for direct-hire software engineers at top-tier companies have gone way up in the last ten years or so. My impression is that contractor wages are... keeping up with inflation. Also note, my perception is that contractor interviews have not gotten much more difficult at all, while direct hire interviews have practically become contests of endurance; like you are expected to spend like 5x as much time on a direct hire interview than, say, 10 or 15 years ago, while you can do a contract interview over a long lunch. Companies also seem to be okay paying Engineers very significant sales-style performance bonuses (in fact, this is where almost all of that increase in pay has come from) and this really helps them keep the gamblers; the people like me who jump every few years 'cause someone offered 20% more. (I mean, the bonus system is another system you need to learn to game, but it's not harder than the interview system.) My speculation (and I'm totally unqualified to speculate on sociological trends, but you asked.) is that something has changed, and the cultural prestige of the Engineer has gone way up, and that this has changed management's willingness to spend directly on Engineer compensation.

Aloha 8y ago
My last contract job, I was hired sight unseen, with only a cursory technical interview, that mostly established I could breathe.
- halfastack 8y ago
  That was my experience as well. Needless to say, I was woefully unprepared for the job, but that also meant I have learnt a ton of interesting things.
WalterBright 8y ago
A contractor can be let go on a moment's notice, so there is much less risk of a bad hire than a direct. So no need to expend the effort on an interview.
xfitm3 8y ago
What do you do where a degree is critical? I've never even been asked about my education in over 20 years.
- lsc 8y ago
  >What do you do where a degree is critical? I've never even been asked about my education in over 20 years. I am a "linux systems administrator and programmer" in silicon valley, me too. I mean, I'm sure that my lack of a degree gets my resume binned some places, but almost nobody mentions it, and there are plenty of jobs where they clearly don't care; I don't have trouble finding work. My experience is that if I try to get a job outside of silicon valley (and especially if I try to get a job outside the USA) my lack of credentials becomes a big issue. Part of this is cultural, I think, though a lot of it has to do with work visas. As a US citizen, I can vacation most places without too much trouble, but I still need to jump through hoops if I want to work elsewhere, and if I want to get a 'skilled worker' visa, they usually expect a degree.
0xADEADBEE 8y ago
Thanks for the insight. I've experienced British, Australian and New Zealand contract markets and contracting is far and away the only way to get even close to Bay Area salary levels so I'll be watching this trend closely. I really appreciate you commenting; thank you.

usrusr 8y ago

If it's mostly America/Bay Area I would propose the following explanation: Conventional employers/clients (e.g. your friendly diesel manufacturer) spend money on developers when they have a problem they want solved, they love expensive freelancers: if they could they would fly in a squad of experts, get a solution for a single lump sum payment and then hand it over for maintenance to that underpaid slob they keep in the basement. Overfunded startups as well absurdly profitable SV success stories are a very different story. Building a talent pool is a core investment for them. In many cases they would rather have one good hire than two good ones and two bad because their immediate needs are already met and low performing hires are avoided not so much because of another head on the payroll, but because talent dilution is impossible to undo. They are not interested in adding quantity, but building quality teams is just the way they spend their money. Offers will be either high or nonexistent, and freelancers not welcome.

tracker1 8y ago
Exactly this... to your first point, second tier cities in terms of software development jobs (Phoenix, Austin, Atlanta, etc) have a lot to offer. There's enough contract work that you can always find something within a couple weeks, and pay is generally competitive to salaried positions. There's also quite a bit of FT work, but more of that will be with more stable tech. YMMV, but the quality of life, at least for me in Phoenix feels significantly better. I may not be making a quarter million or more a year as I might in SV, but I also don't have nearly the level of stress in my life.
0xADEADBEE 8y ago
An interesting point - I hadn't at all considered the trend of slowly growing an engineering team. I'd bet you're on the money with this.