31 ms·

I have a real problem with modern jazz. It's always trying to be something that it really isn't. It's just these people who grew up listening to the greats from

I have a real problem with modern jazz. It's always trying to be something that it really isn't. It's just these people who grew up listening to the greats from the 20th century and imitating that sound. There's zero invention to it. Anything since the 70s and rise of smooth jazz is just rehashed mockery of a thing that once was. "Jazz" was something that happened at a specific time and place, with a specific group of people, and then it was over. It's not some transcendental overarching genre in itself to be explored. I'm far more interested now in hearing whatever some weird new electronic artist is coming up with than listening to someone perform Giant Steps note-for-note, or do a perfect Ella Fitzgerald.

brian-armstrong 8y ago
Sorry, what? Are you sure you aren't making claims based on your particular experience with it? What about new types of jazz like Dilla jazz?
- coldtea 8y ago
  What about them? They're basically a subgenre of hip hop, for one.
  - SolaceQuantum 8y ago
    But they're a new genre, a new "sound". It doesn't need to be completely unique to be a new or novel experience. Jazz was derivative of earlier genres, and those genres deriative of those before.
    - coldtea 8y ago
      >But they're a new genre, a new "sound". The parent didn't ask for a new sound in abstract. There have been tons of new genres (sounds), especially in electronic music since the 80s. They ask for a new development in jazz. A hip-hop genre might be a new sound, but it's not a jazz development.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
walshemj 8y ago
You haven't heard "love is a crying game" by Amy Whitehouse then - I though it was a lost Billy Holiday side when I first heard it. Id agree on the performers when you have to have done a degree in music theory to appreciate it.
- coldtea 8y ago
  >You haven't heard "love is a crying game" by Amy Whitehouse then - I though it was a lost Billy Holiday side when I first heard it. Doesn't that makes the parent's point even more?
bevinahally 8y ago
This was addressed perfectly by Robert Glasper at a workshop that I attended. To paraphrase, he was talking about current day jazz school students talking about jazz like it's a work of Mozart or Beethoven, to be reproduced perfectly. "Hip-hop musicians are more jazz than jazz musicians today" I wouldn't write off modern jazz though. I truly think that we're experiencing something phenomenal these days. I highly recommend anything by Snarky Puppy. Case in point - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_XJ_s5IsQc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_XJ_s5IsQc
- i_am_proteus 8y ago
  This. Jazz is difficult to play, and what makes it interesting is that it requires musicians with the talent and dedication to master their instruments, but also open-mindedness to play new things. There are forces at work (i.e. Wynton Marsalis) trying to canonize a certain era of jazz as an essentially classical art form while expelling other musicians from the genre. These influences are present in jazz education-- teaching musicians what is jazz and what is not jazz. Fortunately for all of us, the likes of Snarky Puppy, Kamasi Washington, Esperanza Spalding, John Medeski, and Robert Glasper are still making new music. Ignore the critics. Listen to something you haven't tried before. You just might like it.
  - Touche 8y ago
    Thanks for the recommendations. I'm someone who loves the golden age of jazz but never got into modern jazz. I'd be happy to have my mind changed. After a small sampling I think Snarky Puppy is definitely not for me. It's a little bit busy for me, I'm much more of a passive listener so anything that requires intense concentration I don't like. Kamasi Washington is much closer to being something I like. So of the songs I've listened to are also a little busy as well, though. Is this just a characteristic of all modern jazz?
    - bevinahally 8y ago
      I'd say that busyness is a pretty strong characteristic of modern jazz, but there's still a lot out there that you could listen to passively. Brad Mehldau - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omF16-qbmeM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omF16-qbmeM Bill Laurance - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEXiixI6a2o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEXiixI6a2o Harold Lopez-Nussa - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B2R1TmutBA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B2R1TmutBA I really enjoy the golden age of jazz. At the same time there's so much good music around these days and I can't help but appreciate the richness around us today. I'd love to chat about music (my email's on my profile). Any GroundUp folks reading this, I'll see you in Miami in a few weeks :)
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
dub 8y ago
The linked article begins by mentioning Esperanza Spalding. To make the discussion more concrete, what specific recordings or artists from prior to the 70s would you argue her music a "rehashed mockery" of?
- coldtea 8y ago
  She's not your regular jazz artist. Even so, she's more like a mix of trip hop, tropicália, funk and blues. Unique blend, but hardly new avenues.
  - dub 8y ago
    If a person defines jazz as "swing or bebop music that sounds like it did in the 40s and 50s" then that person will have created for themselves a concept of jazz which (by definition) cannot evolve. That person isn't going to get much value out of _complaining_ that jazz isn't evolving by their evolution-proof definition of jazz, though.
    - coldtea 8y ago
      >then that person will have created for themselves a concept of jazz which (by definition) cannot evolve Well, we don't. But mixing other decades-old genres is not "evolving".
      - dub 8y ago
        If you're not open to naming a concrete artist or recording that Esperanza is a rehash of, would you open to giving a concrete example of what you personally consider to be evolution in music within an existing genre that doesn't involve mixing elements of other genres? Bonus points if the example doesn't depend on the introduction of a new instrument or musicmaking device that wasn't generally available when the genre began.
tayo42 8y ago
> I'm far more interested now in hearing whatever some weird new electronic artist is coming up with Who in electronic music is pushing any of the genres forward right now? Trap and festival house took over festivals and stopped innovating. dubstep seems to be on life support, same with electro house. Trance hasn't moved forward and if anything wants to go back to the 90s sound. House never seemed to get ambitious
- WaxProlix 8y ago
  I feel like IDM sort of stalled, too. At one point, it seemed like we had some great minimalist work being done, some outstanding glitchy-sounding IDM coming from Autechre and Aphex Twin, and now there's-- what? Nothing, maybe. Definitely seems like we're in a rut (or maybe I'm getting too old to follow the scene properly anymore?)
  - clydethefrog 8y ago
    Check out the recommended music section and their best albums of the year at Resident Advisor. Objekt's latest is probably something you would like.
- jdietrich 8y ago
  Nils Frahm, Death Grips, Gazelle Twin, Gábor Lázár, the entire PC Music roster... Say what you like about Oil Of Every Pearl's Un-Insides, but you can't say that it's stale.
  - tayo42 8y ago
    Heh that was some interesting listening...
- zwegner 8y ago
  There's really quite a lot, if you know where to look. One particular genre I enjoy is experimental bass music, that tends to emphasize extremely detailed sound design and production. Every song will generally sound completely different. Here's a few songs, all from the last year or two, that should give a rough idea of what I'm talking about: SIXIS - Faceless: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmJ8KAt8dQ4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmJ8KAt8dQ4 Mr. Bill & kLL sMTH - Killiam William: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kBvWVkqebc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kBvWVkqebc Frequent - Pumple Snout: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkzZhefuPGI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkzZhefuPGI Freddy Todd - Audible Edibles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hJM8nae9qM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hJM8nae9qM KOAN Sound - Chilli Daddy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6r9qxHg3qk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6r9qxHg3qk Futexture - Through the Edge of Never: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNPpgJtJ9E4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNPpgJtJ9E4
coldtea 8y ago
There were also the circumstances (from the experience of being black in segregation-era America to jazz joints being seedy places where you could drink and smoke). Music genres are not just knowledge of the rules (e.g. of harmonization) and technical skills. Without the culture that sustains them they are less powerful, or worse, kitch.
beatpanda 8y ago
Listen to the artists named in the article. Half of the players that are part of the recent wave are on the same record labels as your "weird new electronic artist". The Comet Is Coming, one of Shabaka Hutching's many bands, is a great example, and so is anything on Brainfeeder.
blueboo 8y ago
Silly generalizations borne of ignorance. > Anything since the 70s and rise of smooth jazz is just rehashed mockery ...oh dear... > someone perform Giant Steps note-for-note, or do a perfect Ella Fitzgerald dunno who's doing the former outside of Berklee practice rooms. And while hotels give venues to the latter, the heirs to Ella are people like Adele and Erykah Badu. But maybe I'm just yelling into the wind; to a sufficiently snobbish snob, isn't everything "just rehashed mockery of a thing that once was"? Holding the past too preciously and scorning the present for its difference (while at the same time blaming it for that) is an unassailable position in the worst possible way...
3131s 8y ago
Pure ignorance.
mtalantikite 8y ago
I'd suggest you try listening to some of the artists the article was making mention of. There are lots of very interesting new concepts in the music these days. And sure, there are kids playing transcriptions of Giant Steps, but who cares, that's not where the music is really at. The author mentioned Makaya McCraven's work, which is made by getting together an assortment of musicians to improvise at live venues in front of an audience, which is recorded and then manipulated in Ableton after the fact. Those compositions that come out of Ableton are then transcribed, arranged, and performed with a new band. For instance, I was at the show that was the source material for this at h0l0 in Ridgewood: https://intlanthem.bandcamp.com/track/black-lion-feat-dezron-douglas https://intlanthem.bandcamp.com/track/black-lion-feat-dezron... . Those moments happened, but in very different ways over the course of the couple hours of the night. The version that came out of Makaya's post production and collage from Ableton was then performed a few weeks ago at LPR with a full band as a regular composition. A lot of these musicians are doing quite a lot of things you probably assume only "electronic" artists are doing, but they're just doing it in the context of "jazz" (whatever that means). Disclaimer: Makaya's been a friend of mine for 15ish years, but the work speaks for itself.
- weerd 8y ago
  So envious you are friends with such a stellar musician. I've been blown away by "In the Moment". It's 21st century jazz and a huge inspiration.
bane 8y ago
Jazz never "clicked" with me until it was described as an Avant-garde art form. Then it all made beautiful sense and also stuck it fairly firmly into early to mid 20th century sensibilities. There's been some great artists and groups sense, but that's the era that seems to have really put the boundaries on the style.
majgrz 8y ago
true, only Nils Petter Molvær is edible for me. After years of listening to chillout I started to hate drums, now only ambient is approachable. There is small exception: Gas (Wolfgang Voigt), but it is more like sound of engine than drums: https://youtu.be/emUETcnDxnY?t=41 https://youtu.be/emUETcnDxnY?t=41
Tycho 8y ago
A lot of jazz, if you were to take an excerpt of the notes being played and listen to them in the cold light of day, is just objectively bad. A bit more sophisticated than, but similar to, over indulgent rock guitar soloing.

brian-armstrong 8y ago

Sorry, what? Are you sure you aren't making claims based on your particular experience with it? What about new types of jazz like Dilla jazz?

coldtea 8y ago
What about them? They're basically a subgenre of hip hop, for one.
- SolaceQuantum 8y ago
  But they're a new genre, a new "sound". It doesn't need to be completely unique to be a new or novel experience. Jazz was derivative of earlier genres, and those genres deriative of those before.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    >But they're a new genre, a new "sound". The parent didn't ask for a new sound in abstract. There have been tons of new genres (sounds), especially in electronic music since the 80s. They ask for a new development in jazz. A hip-hop genre might be a new sound, but it's not a jazz development.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

walshemj 8y ago

You haven't heard "love is a crying game" by Amy Whitehouse then - I though it was a lost Billy Holiday side when I first heard it. Id agree on the performers when you have to have done a degree in music theory to appreciate it.

coldtea 8y ago
>You haven't heard "love is a crying game" by Amy Whitehouse then - I though it was a lost Billy Holiday side when I first heard it. Doesn't that makes the parent's point even more?

bevinahally 8y ago

This was addressed perfectly by Robert Glasper at a workshop that I attended. To paraphrase, he was talking about current day jazz school students talking about jazz like it's a work of Mozart or Beethoven, to be reproduced perfectly. "Hip-hop musicians are more jazz than jazz musicians today" I wouldn't write off modern jazz though. I truly think that we're experiencing something phenomenal these days. I highly recommend anything by Snarky Puppy. Case in point - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_XJ_s5IsQc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_XJ_s5IsQc

i_am_proteus 8y ago
This. Jazz is difficult to play, and what makes it interesting is that it requires musicians with the talent and dedication to master their instruments, but also open-mindedness to play new things. There are forces at work (i.e. Wynton Marsalis) trying to canonize a certain era of jazz as an essentially classical art form while expelling other musicians from the genre. These influences are present in jazz education-- teaching musicians what is jazz and what is not jazz. Fortunately for all of us, the likes of Snarky Puppy, Kamasi Washington, Esperanza Spalding, John Medeski, and Robert Glasper are still making new music. Ignore the critics. Listen to something you haven't tried before. You just might like it.
- Touche 8y ago
  Thanks for the recommendations. I'm someone who loves the golden age of jazz but never got into modern jazz. I'd be happy to have my mind changed. After a small sampling I think Snarky Puppy is definitely not for me. It's a little bit busy for me, I'm much more of a passive listener so anything that requires intense concentration I don't like. Kamasi Washington is much closer to being something I like. So of the songs I've listened to are also a little busy as well, though. Is this just a characteristic of all modern jazz?
  - bevinahally 8y ago
    I'd say that busyness is a pretty strong characteristic of modern jazz, but there's still a lot out there that you could listen to passively. Brad Mehldau - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omF16-qbmeM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omF16-qbmeM Bill Laurance - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEXiixI6a2o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEXiixI6a2o Harold Lopez-Nussa - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B2R1TmutBA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B2R1TmutBA I really enjoy the golden age of jazz. At the same time there's so much good music around these days and I can't help but appreciate the richness around us today. I'd love to chat about music (my email's on my profile). Any GroundUp folks reading this, I'll see you in Miami in a few weeks :)

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

dub 8y ago

The linked article begins by mentioning Esperanza Spalding. To make the discussion more concrete, what specific recordings or artists from prior to the 70s would you argue her music a "rehashed mockery" of?

coldtea 8y ago
She's not your regular jazz artist. Even so, she's more like a mix of trip hop, tropicália, funk and blues. Unique blend, but hardly new avenues.
- dub 8y ago
  If a person defines jazz as "swing or bebop music that sounds like it did in the 40s and 50s" then that person will have created for themselves a concept of jazz which (by definition) cannot evolve. That person isn't going to get much value out of _complaining_ that jazz isn't evolving by their evolution-proof definition of jazz, though.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    >then that person will have created for themselves a concept of jazz which (by definition) cannot evolve Well, we don't. But mixing other decades-old genres is not "evolving".
    - dub 8y ago
      If you're not open to naming a concrete artist or recording that Esperanza is a rehash of, would you open to giving a concrete example of what you personally consider to be evolution in music within an existing genre that doesn't involve mixing elements of other genres? Bonus points if the example doesn't depend on the introduction of a new instrument or musicmaking device that wasn't generally available when the genre began.

tayo42 8y ago

> I'm far more interested now in hearing whatever some weird new electronic artist is coming up with Who in electronic music is pushing any of the genres forward right now? Trap and festival house took over festivals and stopped innovating. dubstep seems to be on life support, same with electro house. Trance hasn't moved forward and if anything wants to go back to the 90s sound. House never seemed to get ambitious

WaxProlix 8y ago
I feel like IDM sort of stalled, too. At one point, it seemed like we had some great minimalist work being done, some outstanding glitchy-sounding IDM coming from Autechre and Aphex Twin, and now there's-- what? Nothing, maybe. Definitely seems like we're in a rut (or maybe I'm getting too old to follow the scene properly anymore?)
- clydethefrog 8y ago
  Check out the recommended music section and their best albums of the year at Resident Advisor. Objekt's latest is probably something you would like.
jdietrich 8y ago
Nils Frahm, Death Grips, Gazelle Twin, Gábor Lázár, the entire PC Music roster... Say what you like about Oil Of Every Pearl's Un-Insides, but you can't say that it's stale.
- tayo42 8y ago
  Heh that was some interesting listening...
zwegner 8y ago
There's really quite a lot, if you know where to look. One particular genre I enjoy is experimental bass music, that tends to emphasize extremely detailed sound design and production. Every song will generally sound completely different. Here's a few songs, all from the last year or two, that should give a rough idea of what I'm talking about: SIXIS - Faceless: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmJ8KAt8dQ4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmJ8KAt8dQ4 Mr. Bill & kLL sMTH - Killiam William: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kBvWVkqebc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kBvWVkqebc Frequent - Pumple Snout: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkzZhefuPGI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkzZhefuPGI Freddy Todd - Audible Edibles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hJM8nae9qM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hJM8nae9qM KOAN Sound - Chilli Daddy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6r9qxHg3qk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6r9qxHg3qk Futexture - Through the Edge of Never: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNPpgJtJ9E4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNPpgJtJ9E4

coldtea 8y ago

There were also the circumstances (from the experience of being black in segregation-era America to jazz joints being seedy places where you could drink and smoke). Music genres are not just knowledge of the rules (e.g. of harmonization) and technical skills. Without the culture that sustains them they are less powerful, or worse, kitch.

beatpanda 8y ago

Listen to the artists named in the article. Half of the players that are part of the recent wave are on the same record labels as your "weird new electronic artist". The Comet Is Coming, one of Shabaka Hutching's many bands, is a great example, and so is anything on Brainfeeder.

blueboo 8y ago

Silly generalizations borne of ignorance. > Anything since the 70s and rise of smooth jazz is just rehashed mockery ...oh dear... > someone perform Giant Steps note-for-note, or do a perfect Ella Fitzgerald dunno who's doing the former outside of Berklee practice rooms. And while hotels give venues to the latter, the heirs to Ella are people like Adele and Erykah Badu. But maybe I'm just yelling into the wind; to a sufficiently snobbish snob, isn't everything "just rehashed mockery of a thing that once was"? Holding the past too preciously and scorning the present for its difference (while at the same time blaming it for that) is an unassailable position in the worst possible way...

3131s 8y ago

Pure ignorance.

mtalantikite 8y ago

I'd suggest you try listening to some of the artists the article was making mention of. There are lots of very interesting new concepts in the music these days. And sure, there are kids playing transcriptions of Giant Steps, but who cares, that's not where the music is really at. The author mentioned Makaya McCraven's work, which is made by getting together an assortment of musicians to improvise at live venues in front of an audience, which is recorded and then manipulated in Ableton after the fact. Those compositions that come out of Ableton are then transcribed, arranged, and performed with a new band. For instance, I was at the show that was the source material for this at h0l0 in Ridgewood: https://intlanthem.bandcamp.com/track/black-lion-feat-dezron-douglas https://intlanthem.bandcamp.com/track/black-lion-feat-dezron... . Those moments happened, but in very different ways over the course of the couple hours of the night. The version that came out of Makaya's post production and collage from Ableton was then performed a few weeks ago at LPR with a full band as a regular composition. A lot of these musicians are doing quite a lot of things you probably assume only "electronic" artists are doing, but they're just doing it in the context of "jazz" (whatever that means). Disclaimer: Makaya's been a friend of mine for 15ish years, but the work speaks for itself.

weerd 8y ago
So envious you are friends with such a stellar musician. I've been blown away by "In the Moment". It's 21st century jazz and a huge inspiration.

bane 8y ago

Jazz never "clicked" with me until it was described as an Avant-garde art form. Then it all made beautiful sense and also stuck it fairly firmly into early to mid 20th century sensibilities. There's been some great artists and groups sense, but that's the era that seems to have really put the boundaries on the style.

majgrz 8y ago

true, only Nils Petter Molvær is edible for me. After years of listening to chillout I started to hate drums, now only ambient is approachable. There is small exception: Gas (Wolfgang Voigt), but it is more like sound of engine than drums: https://youtu.be/emUETcnDxnY?t=41 https://youtu.be/emUETcnDxnY?t=41

Tycho 8y ago

A lot of jazz, if you were to take an excerpt of the notes being played and listen to them in the cold light of day, is just objectively bad. A bit more sophisticated than, but similar to, over indulgent rock guitar soloing.