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Arena shooters are "dying" for the same reason chess isn't as popular as online poker. Back in the day arena shooter popularity was because there was no low han

by zanny 8y ago

Arena shooters are "dying" for the same reason chess isn't as popular as online poker. Back in the day arena shooter popularity was because there was no low hanging fruit alternative like modern military shooters or Fortnite of today. But it turns out most people don't want to either participate in or watch games of absolute skill. The former requires a lot of commitment to get good at it, and there is no randomness or luck to make you feel you are better than you are - just your own ability. The later is reflected in the former, in how complex interations and difficulty make watching really skillful games harder because there is so much to account for deterministically. Thats what gravitates people towards randomness in games, where skill is taken out of the equation. Then you don't have to practice or actually "be good", you could just get lucky, and thats enough for most people - they aren't looking for challenges in their games, just dopamine kicks, and we are wired enough to get similar effects to chance we get to perseverance and the former doesn't require the hard work. Arena shooters are alive and thriving. Quake Champions Doom Edition[1] is a miracle mod that is incredible to see and play knowing its running on what started as the first breakout PC shooter of all time. But its not a commercial product. Its a fan game. But its just as good, or better, than what almost any big budget arena shooter could offer, because they are not about spectacle at all, they are about the tightness and responsiveness of the gameplay. [1] https://www.moddb.com/mods/quake-champions-doom-edition https://www.moddb.com/mods/quake-champions-doom-edition

mattbreeden 8y ago
> Thats what gravitates people towards randomness in games, where skill is taken out of the equation. Then you don't have to practice or actually "be good", you could just get lucky, and thats enough for most people - they aren't looking for challenges in their games, just dopamine kicks, and we are wired enough to get similar effects to chance we get to perseverance and the later doesn't even require hard work to get there. That's how many people feel about the abilities in QC, yet you linked a QC style mod. Are the abilities toned down in the mod compared to how they are in QC?
Jare 8y ago
> Then you don't have to practice or actually "be good", you could just get lucky, and thats enough for most people - they aren't looking for challenges in their games, just dopamine kicks I don't think you understand how either type of games work. You really believe "dopamine kicks" play a bigger role in casual games than in hardcore ones? More casual games lean on the fact that there are more aspects to derive fun and value from than just being "better" (being "good" is relative) or just overcoming challenge. Skill, practice and challenge all play a part even in casual games, they simply are not such overpowering factors compared to hardcore experiences.
MattRix 8y ago
Anyone with any sense of these games work would see that modern games like Fortnite or Overwatch take more skill than typical arena shooters. You still need to have the raw mechanical aim skill, but now there are a host of other mechanical, tactical and cooperative skills to master on top of that.
- cheeseomlit 8y ago
  >You still need to have the raw mechanical aim skill Not even close to the extent you need to have it for a fast-paced AFPS. Watch some top-level quake gameplay and compare it to top-level Overwatch gameplay, it's night and day. Hell, some OW characters even aim for you or don't need to aim at all to be effective (Winston for example) >but now there are a host of other mechanical, tactical and cooperative skills to master on top of that Cooperation sure, OW does put more of an emphasis on teamwork. But as far as mechanical and tactical skill goes I don't see how you can make that argument unless you've never played an AFPS
  - zanny 8y ago
    It also doesn't help that almost all arena shooters support cooperative team deathmatch, capture the flag, etc. The only difference is a lack of role specialization between teammates. But the scene isn't as big for those as it is for 1v1, because its already overwhelming trying to track two people operating at peak performance, let alone 8 or 12. Its a niche of a niche.
    - flor1s 8y ago
      The gameplay of games such as Return to Castle Wolfenstein, Quake 3 Fortress and Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory was very satisfying because they felt like arena shooters (due to their use of the Quake 3 engine) but were early examples of games having role specialization.
- leoc 8y ago
  I can't speak about Fortnite, but movement in Overwatch is in general easier than in arena shooters, no? No bunny-hopping, no explosive jumping, apparently no airstrafing now either ...?
nikanj 8y ago
Karaoke is more popular than playing in a symphony orchestra. Having a higher skill check / barrier of entry doesn't make the hobby any more entertaining.
Simon_says 8y ago
> chess isn't as popular as online poker. Why do you think this?

by zanny 8y ago

mattbreeden 8y ago

> Thats what gravitates people towards randomness in games, where skill is taken out of the equation. Then you don't have to practice or actually "be good", you could just get lucky, and thats enough for most people - they aren't looking for challenges in their games, just dopamine kicks, and we are wired enough to get similar effects to chance we get to perseverance and the later doesn't even require hard work to get there. That's how many people feel about the abilities in QC, yet you linked a QC style mod. Are the abilities toned down in the mod compared to how they are in QC?

Jare 8y ago

> Then you don't have to practice or actually "be good", you could just get lucky, and thats enough for most people - they aren't looking for challenges in their games, just dopamine kicks I don't think you understand how either type of games work. You really believe "dopamine kicks" play a bigger role in casual games than in hardcore ones? More casual games lean on the fact that there are more aspects to derive fun and value from than just being "better" (being "good" is relative) or just overcoming challenge. Skill, practice and challenge all play a part even in casual games, they simply are not such overpowering factors compared to hardcore experiences.

MattRix 8y ago

Anyone with any sense of these games work would see that modern games like Fortnite or Overwatch take more skill than typical arena shooters. You still need to have the raw mechanical aim skill, but now there are a host of other mechanical, tactical and cooperative skills to master on top of that.

cheeseomlit 8y ago
>You still need to have the raw mechanical aim skill Not even close to the extent you need to have it for a fast-paced AFPS. Watch some top-level quake gameplay and compare it to top-level Overwatch gameplay, it's night and day. Hell, some OW characters even aim for you or don't need to aim at all to be effective (Winston for example) >but now there are a host of other mechanical, tactical and cooperative skills to master on top of that Cooperation sure, OW does put more of an emphasis on teamwork. But as far as mechanical and tactical skill goes I don't see how you can make that argument unless you've never played an AFPS
- zanny 8y ago
  It also doesn't help that almost all arena shooters support cooperative team deathmatch, capture the flag, etc. The only difference is a lack of role specialization between teammates. But the scene isn't as big for those as it is for 1v1, because its already overwhelming trying to track two people operating at peak performance, let alone 8 or 12. Its a niche of a niche.
  - flor1s 8y ago
    The gameplay of games such as Return to Castle Wolfenstein, Quake 3 Fortress and Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory was very satisfying because they felt like arena shooters (due to their use of the Quake 3 engine) but were early examples of games having role specialization.
leoc 8y ago
I can't speak about Fortnite, but movement in Overwatch is in general easier than in arena shooters, no? No bunny-hopping, no explosive jumping, apparently no airstrafing now either ...?

nikanj 8y ago

Karaoke is more popular than playing in a symphony orchestra. Having a higher skill check / barrier of entry doesn't make the hobby any more entertaining.

Simon_says 8y ago

> chess isn't as popular as online poker. Why do you think this?