5 ms·

Shame none of that is going towards UT development and Epic scrapped that project. Considering the state of the new Quake game I guess that's the end for Arena

Shame none of that is going towards UT development and Epic scrapped that project. Considering the state of the new Quake game I guess that's the end for Arena shooters.

munchbunny 8y ago
It's too bad, but arena shooters have been dying as a category ever since around UT3. I'm hopeful they'll make a resurgence in the future.
- jplayer01 8y ago
  I thought Quake Champions would be the best chance for the genre to be revived. With how popular LoL and DotA and Overwatch are, it seemed like a mix of the traditional arena shooter with special abilities/spells would be a good way to attract that audience. It hasn't. Maybe because Bethesda's efforts still lean too heavily on traditional Quake and they're unwilling to really embrace the RPG/ability aspect of MOBAs. Unfortunately, so many developers have tried and failed to make a "modern" arena shooter that I don't see anybody else giving it an interesting, worthy take on a hybrid.
  - cheeseomlit 8y ago
    The failure of QC has nothing do with them not embracing the RPG/ability aspect of MOBAs, that was always just a gimmick anyways (when QC introduced gametypes without abilities they ended up being more popular). It has everything to do with Bethesda utterly mismanaging the entire project into the ground. They hired Saber Interactive (probably the cheapest studio they could find) instead of going with more expensive in-house development with iD. The engine is a frankenstein monster of old iDtech with Saber's console-oriented crap piled on top and the result is woeful performance, memory leaks, desync, and laughable netcode all of which has not been addressed in the 2 years it's been in "beta". Add in the cancerous "games as a service" model that does not allow for any custom content, maps, or community servers (which were always the lifeblood of quake) and there you have it
    - mattbreeden 8y ago
      Yeah, I think there are a LOT of reasons. It's just a bad game. Seems like a cash grab more than an actual desire to make a good quake game. Reminds me a lot of Street Fighter 5 vs SF4.
    - jplayer01 8y ago
      It's not a gimmick. It's where I see the only chance for arena shooters. Maybe Bethesda treated it that way, but I genuinely believe that's the only hope there is considering how popular MOBAs are.
      - cheeseomlit 8y ago
        You might be right considering how poorly "pure" arena shooters have done despite being excellent games (Reflex Arena for example). Personally I prefer to have an even playing field when I play a competitive game, but it seems like I'm in the minority nowadays.
  - Jach 8y ago
    There's a lot of game design baggage that big IP titles just can't resist including, I'd expect an arena revival to come from an indie shop trying new things and importantly leaving out a lot of other things. I wouldn't mind seeing Tribes sledding in more stuff though.
    - mr_luc 8y ago
      "Skiing" -- a physics bug that could cancel out friction with the ground, which (together with the game's wide open terrain and jetpacks) was so beloved by the community that it became the identifying movement mechanic of the franchise.
      - Jach 8y ago
        Whoops, embarrassing slip of the tongue with a different winter activity... To make up for it here's an article for those interested in implementing Tribes physics with skiing. It's not really just some notion of "friction = 0". https://floodyberry.wordpress.com/2008/02/20/tribes-1-physics-part-one-overview/ https://floodyberry.wordpress.com/2008/02/20/tribes-1-physic...
- zanny 8y ago
  Arena shooters are "dying" for the same reason chess isn't as popular as online poker. Back in the day arena shooter popularity was because there was no low hanging fruit alternative like modern military shooters or Fortnite of today. But it turns out most people don't want to either participate in or watch games of absolute skill. The former requires a lot of commitment to get good at it, and there is no randomness or luck to make you feel you are better than you are - just your own ability. The later is reflected in the former, in how complex interations and difficulty make watching really skillful games harder because there is so much to account for deterministically. Thats what gravitates people towards randomness in games, where skill is taken out of the equation. Then you don't have to practice or actually "be good", you could just get lucky, and thats enough for most people - they aren't looking for challenges in their games, just dopamine kicks, and we are wired enough to get similar effects to chance we get to perseverance and the former doesn't require the hard work. Arena shooters are alive and thriving. Quake Champions Doom Edition[1] is a miracle mod that is incredible to see and play knowing its running on what started as the first breakout PC shooter of all time. But its not a commercial product. Its a fan game. But its just as good, or better, than what almost any big budget arena shooter could offer, because they are not about spectacle at all, they are about the tightness and responsiveness of the gameplay. [1] https://www.moddb.com/mods/quake-champions-doom-edition https://www.moddb.com/mods/quake-champions-doom-edition
  - mattbreeden 8y ago
    > Thats what gravitates people towards randomness in games, where skill is taken out of the equation. Then you don't have to practice or actually "be good", you could just get lucky, and thats enough for most people - they aren't looking for challenges in their games, just dopamine kicks, and we are wired enough to get similar effects to chance we get to perseverance and the later doesn't even require hard work to get there. That's how many people feel about the abilities in QC, yet you linked a QC style mod. Are the abilities toned down in the mod compared to how they are in QC?
  - Jare 8y ago
    > Then you don't have to practice or actually "be good", you could just get lucky, and thats enough for most people - they aren't looking for challenges in their games, just dopamine kicks I don't think you understand how either type of games work. You really believe "dopamine kicks" play a bigger role in casual games than in hardcore ones? More casual games lean on the fact that there are more aspects to derive fun and value from than just being "better" (being "good" is relative) or just overcoming challenge. Skill, practice and challenge all play a part even in casual games, they simply are not such overpowering factors compared to hardcore experiences.
mattbreeden 8y ago
I still have hope for Diabotical if it ever comes out. It has the seal of approval from Cypher which says a lot to me.

Shame none of that is going towards UT development and Epic scrapped that project. Considering the state of the new Quake game I guess that's the end for Arena shooters.

munchbunny 8y ago

It's too bad, but arena shooters have been dying as a category ever since around UT3. I'm hopeful they'll make a resurgence in the future.

jplayer01 8y ago
I thought Quake Champions would be the best chance for the genre to be revived. With how popular LoL and DotA and Overwatch are, it seemed like a mix of the traditional arena shooter with special abilities/spells would be a good way to attract that audience. It hasn't. Maybe because Bethesda's efforts still lean too heavily on traditional Quake and they're unwilling to really embrace the RPG/ability aspect of MOBAs. Unfortunately, so many developers have tried and failed to make a "modern" arena shooter that I don't see anybody else giving it an interesting, worthy take on a hybrid.
- cheeseomlit 8y ago
  The failure of QC has nothing do with them not embracing the RPG/ability aspect of MOBAs, that was always just a gimmick anyways (when QC introduced gametypes without abilities they ended up being more popular). It has everything to do with Bethesda utterly mismanaging the entire project into the ground. They hired Saber Interactive (probably the cheapest studio they could find) instead of going with more expensive in-house development with iD. The engine is a frankenstein monster of old iDtech with Saber's console-oriented crap piled on top and the result is woeful performance, memory leaks, desync, and laughable netcode all of which has not been addressed in the 2 years it's been in "beta". Add in the cancerous "games as a service" model that does not allow for any custom content, maps, or community servers (which were always the lifeblood of quake) and there you have it
  - mattbreeden 8y ago
    Yeah, I think there are a LOT of reasons. It's just a bad game. Seems like a cash grab more than an actual desire to make a good quake game. Reminds me a lot of Street Fighter 5 vs SF4.
  - jplayer01 8y ago
    It's not a gimmick. It's where I see the only chance for arena shooters. Maybe Bethesda treated it that way, but I genuinely believe that's the only hope there is considering how popular MOBAs are.
    - cheeseomlit 8y ago
      You might be right considering how poorly "pure" arena shooters have done despite being excellent games (Reflex Arena for example). Personally I prefer to have an even playing field when I play a competitive game, but it seems like I'm in the minority nowadays.
- Jach 8y ago
  There's a lot of game design baggage that big IP titles just can't resist including, I'd expect an arena revival to come from an indie shop trying new things and importantly leaving out a lot of other things. I wouldn't mind seeing Tribes sledding in more stuff though.
  - mr_luc 8y ago
    "Skiing" -- a physics bug that could cancel out friction with the ground, which (together with the game's wide open terrain and jetpacks) was so beloved by the community that it became the identifying movement mechanic of the franchise.
    - Jach 8y ago
      Whoops, embarrassing slip of the tongue with a different winter activity... To make up for it here's an article for those interested in implementing Tribes physics with skiing. It's not really just some notion of "friction = 0". https://floodyberry.wordpress.com/2008/02/20/tribes-1-physics-part-one-overview/ https://floodyberry.wordpress.com/2008/02/20/tribes-1-physic...
zanny 8y ago
Arena shooters are "dying" for the same reason chess isn't as popular as online poker. Back in the day arena shooter popularity was because there was no low hanging fruit alternative like modern military shooters or Fortnite of today. But it turns out most people don't want to either participate in or watch games of absolute skill. The former requires a lot of commitment to get good at it, and there is no randomness or luck to make you feel you are better than you are - just your own ability. The later is reflected in the former, in how complex interations and difficulty make watching really skillful games harder because there is so much to account for deterministically. Thats what gravitates people towards randomness in games, where skill is taken out of the equation. Then you don't have to practice or actually "be good", you could just get lucky, and thats enough for most people - they aren't looking for challenges in their games, just dopamine kicks, and we are wired enough to get similar effects to chance we get to perseverance and the former doesn't require the hard work. Arena shooters are alive and thriving. Quake Champions Doom Edition[1] is a miracle mod that is incredible to see and play knowing its running on what started as the first breakout PC shooter of all time. But its not a commercial product. Its a fan game. But its just as good, or better, than what almost any big budget arena shooter could offer, because they are not about spectacle at all, they are about the tightness and responsiveness of the gameplay. [1] https://www.moddb.com/mods/quake-champions-doom-edition https://www.moddb.com/mods/quake-champions-doom-edition
- mattbreeden 8y ago
  > Thats what gravitates people towards randomness in games, where skill is taken out of the equation. Then you don't have to practice or actually "be good", you could just get lucky, and thats enough for most people - they aren't looking for challenges in their games, just dopamine kicks, and we are wired enough to get similar effects to chance we get to perseverance and the later doesn't even require hard work to get there. That's how many people feel about the abilities in QC, yet you linked a QC style mod. Are the abilities toned down in the mod compared to how they are in QC?
- Jare 8y ago
  > Then you don't have to practice or actually "be good", you could just get lucky, and thats enough for most people - they aren't looking for challenges in their games, just dopamine kicks I don't think you understand how either type of games work. You really believe "dopamine kicks" play a bigger role in casual games than in hardcore ones? More casual games lean on the fact that there are more aspects to derive fun and value from than just being "better" (being "good" is relative) or just overcoming challenge. Skill, practice and challenge all play a part even in casual games, they simply are not such overpowering factors compared to hardcore experiences.

mattbreeden 8y ago

I still have hope for Diabotical if it ever comes out. It has the seal of approval from Cypher which says a lot to me.