4 ms·

Surely if killing animals is wrong, so is exploiting them for eggs and milk? So the only moral option (currently available, in the absence of lab-grown meat) is

by tomp 8y ago

Surely if killing animals is wrong, so is exploiting them for eggs and milk? So the only moral option (currently available, in the absence of lab-grown meat) is veganism, which is deadly (it's missing some B vitamin I think).

hn_throwaway_99 8y ago
> Surely if killing animals is wrong, so is exploiting them for eggs and milk? Prefacing an argument with "surely" doesn't make it a stronger argument. I don't see why it follows at all that raising animals for eggs or milk could not be done humanely.
- hkyeti 8y ago
  What happens to males in eggs and milk? Is that (to take one example) humane?
- tomp 8y ago
  Well, the argument agains killing animals seems to be "you wouldn't kill humans" (I don't consider "animals suffer" a valid argument, because there are viable killing methods that don't cause suffering), so then you can use the same argument "you wouldn't enslave humans" with any kind of farm-raising. Like, the only possibly moral alternative would be foraging - picking unfertilized eggs of wild birds - but I don't think that would scale...
  - hn_throwaway_99 8y ago
    > Well, the argument agains killing animals seems to be "you wouldn't kill humans" That's not my argument, so I'll try to explain my personal reasoning. To me, the main real reason we have for not killing or hurting other creatures is that we believe they have some level of emotional life, and are capable of things like happiness, love (at least in some form), sadness, fear, and suffering beyond just physical pain. We love our dogs, cats, etc. because we believe at some level they are capable of loving us back (perhaps a stretch for cats I know). Thus, for me personally I draw the line at mammals because I believe they possess all of these qualities. I will eat poultry, fish and shellfish because I don't believe they have the same capacity of "emotional sentience" as humans, though I'm fully open to the idea that my ideas about poultry are wrong. Thus, while I "wouldn't enslave humans" I also believe it's possible to keep hens and cows for eggs and dairy in a manner where the animal does not suffer, and I don't see this as any kind of "enslavement".
spraak 8y ago
You aren't even sure which vitamin it is, but you're sure that veganism is deadly? It's B12, which is from bacteria in the soil and water, but because of water purification and washing vegetables, we don't get it so much naturally. So vegans take a B12 supplement. But even animals raised as food are also given B12 supplements, and it's often recommended for non-vegans to take a B12 supplement as well. You know what else is deadly? Atherosclerosis from eating animals.
hkyeti 8y ago
Yes exploiting animals for eggs and milk (and all the death that accompanies it) isn't moral when it's for pleasure and not for staying alive. No a plant based diet is not deadly, in fact vegans tend to live longer healthier lives. The longest lived population studied was essentially (over 95%) vegan.

by tomp 8y ago

hn_throwaway_99 8y ago

> Surely if killing animals is wrong, so is exploiting them for eggs and milk? Prefacing an argument with "surely" doesn't make it a stronger argument. I don't see why it follows at all that raising animals for eggs or milk could not be done humanely.

hkyeti 8y ago
What happens to males in eggs and milk? Is that (to take one example) humane?
tomp 8y ago
Well, the argument agains killing animals seems to be "you wouldn't kill humans" (I don't consider "animals suffer" a valid argument, because there are viable killing methods that don't cause suffering), so then you can use the same argument "you wouldn't enslave humans" with any kind of farm-raising. Like, the only possibly moral alternative would be foraging - picking unfertilized eggs of wild birds - but I don't think that would scale...
- hn_throwaway_99 8y ago
  > Well, the argument agains killing animals seems to be "you wouldn't kill humans" That's not my argument, so I'll try to explain my personal reasoning. To me, the main real reason we have for not killing or hurting other creatures is that we believe they have some level of emotional life, and are capable of things like happiness, love (at least in some form), sadness, fear, and suffering beyond just physical pain. We love our dogs, cats, etc. because we believe at some level they are capable of loving us back (perhaps a stretch for cats I know). Thus, for me personally I draw the line at mammals because I believe they possess all of these qualities. I will eat poultry, fish and shellfish because I don't believe they have the same capacity of "emotional sentience" as humans, though I'm fully open to the idea that my ideas about poultry are wrong. Thus, while I "wouldn't enslave humans" I also believe it's possible to keep hens and cows for eggs and dairy in a manner where the animal does not suffer, and I don't see this as any kind of "enslavement".

spraak 8y ago

You aren't even sure which vitamin it is, but you're sure that veganism is deadly? It's B12, which is from bacteria in the soil and water, but because of water purification and washing vegetables, we don't get it so much naturally. So vegans take a B12 supplement. But even animals raised as food are also given B12 supplements, and it's often recommended for non-vegans to take a B12 supplement as well. You know what else is deadly? Atherosclerosis from eating animals.

hkyeti 8y ago

Yes exploiting animals for eggs and milk (and all the death that accompanies it) isn't moral when it's for pleasure and not for staying alive. No a plant based diet is not deadly, in fact vegans tend to live longer healthier lives. The longest lived population studied was essentially (over 95%) vegan.