7 ms·

I'm amazed that Boeing isn't the focus of more - much, much more - criticism. It seems clear to me they are vastly more culpable than the pilots or airline.

pcurve 8y ago
I agree that Boeing's share of responsibility is big. I think media coverage has largely reflected it too. I don't recall reading any article where it put the blame on the pilots. Based on what I've read, it felt more like, 70% Boeing, 29% airline, 1% pilot.
- privateSFacct 8y ago
  If this is the case we seriously need to consider getting rid of the pilots. Stab trim issues are a memory checklist item under existing training with clear cutoffs easily available. 1% pilot fault is ridiculous.
  - SomeHacker44 8y ago
    "Getting rid of the pilots" has already mostly happened. You know this. Autopilot on at 400-1000' and off at MDA/200'/DH to rollout. In between they are system administrators. Heck, even I can and often do fly my much smaller planes this way. And, as you also probably know, autopilot is required to be flying the plane above 28,000' (Google RVSM for interested readers). I am sometimes glad I have access to Cubs, Decathlons, and other simple planes to keep me an honest pilot. :)
    - privateSFacct 8y ago
      So true, and overseas actually a bigger issue I think because they don't always have the recreational / GA flying world going on. Some pilots in airlines trying to develop local skills are going basically straight onto an Airbus flight deck. Not saying it's bad, but they don't seem as comfortable with manual flying. And frankly manual flying is more complicated on these planes - the number of autopilot and throttle modes etc etc - a cessna - pitch, power... I do wonder if adding a basic safe flight pitch power button (ignores everything and just goes to a safe pitch power setting smack in middle of power curve) might help. Literally ignore AoA, ignore speed, ignore everything. Just trim to middle and set power. Air france? This flight? These planes are flying fine otherwise. You don't 100% need all the automation (though the MAX did introduce some weird instability near stall which is annoying in a big way). My own view - make a naturally stable plane (MAX moved away from this), and have a way to fall back to a basic setting that takes advantage of that.
- StreamBright 8y ago
  I think you got it wrong. If you fly a plane you are responsible for the people you are taking. Failing to be reliable manage the plane in every situation is human error. Boeing did not force the airline to buy this model, it did not force them not to have training and finally which is the most serious Boeing did not fail to disengage the autopilot that is a standard procedure in such situation, the pilots did. So I guess it is 99% pilots,1% airline,0% Boeing.
  - hutgu 8y ago
    Nope, if pilots fail to handle an emergency due to poor training, then it's the airline that trained them which is really responsible. Blaming individuals for failures of an organization is not a good strategy for improving safety Also, in this situation disengaging the autopilot would not stop the nose down inputs. It's a new design on 737MAX, and whether Boeing informed airline about it well enough determines if they are at fault or not.

pcurve 8y ago

I agree that Boeing's share of responsibility is big. I think media coverage has largely reflected it too. I don't recall reading any article where it put the blame on the pilots. Based on what I've read, it felt more like, 70% Boeing, 29% airline, 1% pilot.

privateSFacct 8y ago
If this is the case we seriously need to consider getting rid of the pilots. Stab trim issues are a memory checklist item under existing training with clear cutoffs easily available. 1% pilot fault is ridiculous.
- SomeHacker44 8y ago
  "Getting rid of the pilots" has already mostly happened. You know this. Autopilot on at 400-1000' and off at MDA/200'/DH to rollout. In between they are system administrators. Heck, even I can and often do fly my much smaller planes this way. And, as you also probably know, autopilot is required to be flying the plane above 28,000' (Google RVSM for interested readers). I am sometimes glad I have access to Cubs, Decathlons, and other simple planes to keep me an honest pilot. :)
  - privateSFacct 8y ago
    So true, and overseas actually a bigger issue I think because they don't always have the recreational / GA flying world going on. Some pilots in airlines trying to develop local skills are going basically straight onto an Airbus flight deck. Not saying it's bad, but they don't seem as comfortable with manual flying. And frankly manual flying is more complicated on these planes - the number of autopilot and throttle modes etc etc - a cessna - pitch, power... I do wonder if adding a basic safe flight pitch power button (ignores everything and just goes to a safe pitch power setting smack in middle of power curve) might help. Literally ignore AoA, ignore speed, ignore everything. Just trim to middle and set power. Air france? This flight? These planes are flying fine otherwise. You don't 100% need all the automation (though the MAX did introduce some weird instability near stall which is annoying in a big way). My own view - make a naturally stable plane (MAX moved away from this), and have a way to fall back to a basic setting that takes advantage of that.
StreamBright 8y ago
I think you got it wrong. If you fly a plane you are responsible for the people you are taking. Failing to be reliable manage the plane in every situation is human error. Boeing did not force the airline to buy this model, it did not force them not to have training and finally which is the most serious Boeing did not fail to disengage the autopilot that is a standard procedure in such situation, the pilots did. So I guess it is 99% pilots,1% airline,0% Boeing.
- hutgu 8y ago
  Nope, if pilots fail to handle an emergency due to poor training, then it's the airline that trained them which is really responsible. Blaming individuals for failures of an organization is not a good strategy for improving safety Also, in this situation disengaging the autopilot would not stop the nose down inputs. It's a new design on 737MAX, and whether Boeing informed airline about it well enough determines if they are at fault or not.